Ambrosia dances. "First!!"
You say, "That was it."
Announcement: Mark shouts, "Talk Night is about to commence. #399."
You say, "Log is started. Ambrosia is a nerd."
Ambrosia is the win.
Alice wins Ambrosia.
Ambrosia noes.
Ambrosia coughs.
Mark says, "Alrighty, let's get started. The conversation can just flow free form so if you have thoughts or comments, just jump in. If that gets out of control, we'll adjust as we go along."
Alice says, "Affirmative."
Atticus stands up, holding his hat. "My name is Atticus and.. and.. I'm an alcoholic." Then he sits back down. "What? Oh, this isn't-- Ah. Never mind then."
Mark says, "The origin of this talk night discussion was the initial staffing of a game and how to begin the process of hiring staffers."
Minion has arrived.
Ambrosia grins and will give tips on what -not- to do when starting a MUSH..particularly, when being a MU* god.
Mark says, "I think we can discuss that concept as well as the general sequence of beginning the process of getting a game rolling from scratch."
nails says, "I think one of the key issues is to define some of the terms thrown about, as they tend to mean different things to different people. What exactly does it mean to "start" a game? What's involved, and what does the process look like?"
nails says, "In my experience, it looks different every time a new game starts; different people, different histories, different approaches. That said, there are commonalities that can be found, and there are pros and cons to various approaches."
Ambrosia says, "Personally I see starting a game as the following things, not particularly in that order: Thinking of a new theme or already taking a present one, putting the MU* into a particular point of time in said theme, working out the dynamics that will keep the game and players going, getting staff, sharing the idea, building and coding..and at the end, advertising."
Ambrosia says, "This is of course a rather rough summary, not taking care of the interactions between staffers."
nails nods to Ambrosia. "It's a good list of steps, and they form a progression."
Atticus says, "Advertising doesn't necessarily only come at the end. Having people interested in it earlier on can give the admin some much-needed inspiration to keep the project moving."
Ambrosia nods. "Beta testing might even be an option..getting a few temporary players, askin how they feel with the code and grid around them, and take suggestions.
Grey has arrived.
nails says, "In any large project, even if the project plan appears to be laid out in set of linear steps, there is often quite a bit of concurrency."
nails says, "That's just a given."
nails waves to Grey.
Mark nods, "So I have a concept that I'm thinking of exploring for a game. I can either begin the process of developing the idea on existing sites or I could just startup a server and invite others to join me. What are the pros and cons of those approaches?"
Ana has arrived.
Ambrosia says, "That all depends on how the MU* god wants to do things, nails. Some plan the MU*s details months in advance, and then simply hire staff, share the idea and get going, others get a general idea, grab staff and try to work out the details as a group."
Chouli says, "is it possible to build a mu without a god? Or do you need someone with a vision at the helm?"
Atticus says, "Or sometimes the group is offered a chance at starting something and all get mashed together like a delicious pie. Is it blueberry? Is it pumpkin? Only time will tell!"
Mark says, "My personal feeling, Chouli, is that there must be a final decision maker among the staff."
Ambrosia says, "Chouli: Possible, but things tend to go very badly sooner or later without somebody up on front. I'll say a few things about that later."
Alice says, "So, in conclusion, a bit of dictatorship is needed in running a succesful MUSH?"
Chouli says, "in my experience, most games, good or bad, start with someone who has a vision, and that vision is the motivating force behind game development. Do you guys think that's accurate? It's not so much dictatorship as it is a question of vision."
Mark says, "Even if the staff has excellent communication among themeselves, there are times when a topic cannot be decided and a final direction must be given"
Ambrosia says, "Indeed. Running it as a democracy slows down decisions, since the arguments can take a long time without anybody being able to make a final decision."
Wolf nods.
Atticus says, "That all depends on what you think the main task of a 'head wiz' or god actually is."
Ambrosia says, "Somebody has to have the final say, and it must be somebody willing to take responsibility for it."
Alicenods.
Alice says, "Meh. I hate colons."
Mark says, "I'd have to vote for the benign dictatorship. I've always operated that way as a head and as a staff member."
Atticus says, "A democracy steps on less toes, a dictatorship can be abrasive."
Nymeria has arrived.
Alice smiles - "Was there any successful communistic MUSH?"
nails says, "In an ideal environment, conflicts wouldn't require final arbitration. Ideal environments don't exist, but ideals are to be approached. Hopefully there would be focus on the structure of the staff body to help minimize the need for the dictatorial decision making."
Atticus says, "Was there any attempt at it?"
nails says, "Have it there, yes, but try not to use it."
Chouli nods in agreement with nails.
Mark says, "Absolutely, both approaches have drawbacks. However, I think a good staff team will rarely see the dictator make decisions because they can quickly communicate ideas and select a direction."
Ambrosia nods to nails. "Exactly."
Ambrosia says, "The final decision making as a force to end discussion and arguments should be used as a last resort: When necessary."
Ambrosia says, "But the option has to be there."
Mark agrees.
Atticus says, "So what, precisely, are the tasks of the god? Choosing theme? Mere arbitration and game maintenance?"
Ambrosia says, "Depends."
nails says, "Mark said benign dictatorship. I'd add reluctant dictatorship."
Alice says, "Being last instance, I guess."
Ambrosia says, "Usually the MU* god is also the initial creator of the game idea."
Wolf grins at nails.
Chouli nods. Very reluctant.
Chouli says, "and a visionary."
Ambrosia says, "Usually, it's 'their game'."
Atticus pff. Reluctance is for people who care about stepping on toes. A good dictator does what's needed.
Ambrosia says, "They hire the first staff, share their ideas, try to get things rolling."
nails says, "I disagree, Atticus."
Ambrosia says, "Then a -group- gets an idea for a game, the choice of who is the MU* god isn't quite as easy, of course."
Alice says, "Attucus, it works in real world, but not in MUSH."
Ambrosia says, "Er, When."
nails says, "I think the reluctance should be driven not by being shy, but by having an earnest desire for the staff to work together without the heavy hand."
Wolf nods to nails.
Ambrosia says, "A shy MU* god actually is a bad thing."
Wolf says, "An iron paw in a velvet glove ;)"
Atticus says, "The problem is that when it's taken to the other extreme and the god doesn't care at all."
Ambrosia says, "Sooner or later, admin or players tend to make them see things their way by abusing said shyness."
nails says, "There are many problems."
nails says, "I think we're focusing on solutions here."
Atticus says, "Can't focus on solutions without defining the problems first. ;)"
nails says, "We all know things go bad sometimes. If they didn't, every MU* started would still be with us."
Mark says, "A god who isn't willing to make difficult decisions is destined to fail."
nails says, "Lets talk about what we think works well."
Selene has reconnected.
Selene has partially disconnected.
Ambrosia nods. "Actually.."
Selene didn't miss. Really.
Alice says, "Yes, Please."
Ambrosia says, "Let me display a few current cases, what is going wrong with them, and what I think the solutions or things are that'd have prevented those."
Mark nods to Ambrosia
Ambrosia says, "Actually, those several cases all have the same problem."
Atticus says, "The main asset I've seen around any game that's successful (though I've only adminned MUDs and not MUSHes) has been one thing: Inspiration. With enough of it, and the effort to put that inspiration to use, it's nearly impossible to fail."
Atticus, after school special.
Ambrosia says, "Several MU*s In development I am on, usually as site admin or coder, start like this: The MU* god has the fresh idea for a theme, is very eager, starts setting up the inital DB and MU* site. Perhaps even add a WWW forum to exchange ideas and the like."
Ambrosia says, "During the first days.."
nails listens.
Alice is jotting everything down.
Atticus says, "It's all logged, you don't have to. ;)"
Ambrosia says, "he logs on often, talks to me, puts ads all around on several MU*s, and invites people he knows from other MU*s, searching staffers. He explains the theme to them, several like it, they get bits, and in general, the MU*god is very excited and drives things on initially."
Ambrosia says, "A few days later:"
Melodia has arrived.
Ambrosia says, "During the past days a few things got set up, the MU* god often asks about how the people think of this and that, ponders details, and things seem to go perfectly at this point of time."
Ambrosia says, "A few days later #2:"
Ambrosia says, "The MU* god doesn't point out directions as often anymore. Staffers log in, exchange a few words, but in general, the flow of ideas lessens, as well as the general drive of the thing."
nails waves to Melodia.
Ambrosia says, "Yet a few days later, the MU* god still logs on daily, but most of the staffers don't anymore, since nothing is said to them, nothing is there to be done from their point of view since the MU* god isn't passing out jobs anymore. The MU* god themselves only chatters about a few general things, RL and the like.."
Ambrosia says, "About two or three weeks from the inital setup of the site:"
Melodia waves
Ambrosia says, "I sit there, watching the MU* god log in on a semi-daily basis, pretty much staying quiet or just exchanging words like 'hi' 'how are you?'. The other staffers are pretty much gone, with perhaps one exception logging on occasionally."
Ambrosia says, "It all boils down to one thing:"
Ambrosia says, "The MU* god stopped pushing the development and the motivation of the staffers that initially bloomed after a few days."
Ambrosia says, "I can only say again, I'm logged on on three (3) MU*s this recently has happened to."
Ambrosia says, "This is a problem that comes before any arguments, before any decision making or conflict."
Chouli says, "we're about to be there on our mu, imo. We are losing momentum."
Atticus says, "So in your opnion is the MU god the absolute requirement for a game's success? How can the staff themselves generate the inspiration isntead of just draining it off of the head god until there's none left?"
nails has started and failed a dozen games himself, just to watch them die.
Ambrosia says, "If the MU* god doesn't keep on motivating their people, doesn't keep on passing out jobs, communicating and talking for at least several weeks, the place dies down again just as quick as it sprung up."
nails says, "I'll take Ambrosia's point and open it up a little."
Ambrosia says, "Atticus: Quite simply"
Atticus says, "Inspiration and motivation are like a well that keeps the place from dying of thirst. The head god only has so much to give around."
Melodia says, "I know a place that's still going, when MU God hasn't logged in about 700 days."
Ana says, "One thing I've seen that helps with that is to have some sort of a job system where you can put up all your ideas and jobs so that if specific people aren't around, there is still stuff for people to do."
Ambrosia says, "Atticus: The MU* god hired the people. They want to be led, want to be given directions. It's the MU* gods game. If he becomes inactive, most also do. No sense in continuing at this point if the initial creator doesn't show any initiative."
Chouli says, "ok, Ambrosia. I agree with you, but let me ask you a different question."
Ambrosia says, "Shoot."
Chouli says, "We are on a site that nails put up for us as an experiment (I think). We have no god. We have no theme. We have a dozen people interested in working, but nothing to make it cohesive. There is no god or head wiz. Which do you think would work better, getting a theme first or a head wiz first."
nails says, "MU*s are like steam engines. They require a constant source of energy to stay 'alive'. This source of energy can come from the staff or from the players or both, but it's got to be consistent and at or above a certain critical mass. The energy from staff is in some ways more concentrated, and in some ways the player energy is more consistant (after acheiving that critical mass). What Ambrosia's describing is that need for energy before players have settled in. You don't have a choice at that point. It's got to come from staff. And when you're starting out, you don't have the momentum to coast on."
Ambrosia says, "I think talking to the people on the MU* about exactly that would work best. Get discussion going."
nails drops the bomb.
nails says, "Ana gets a gold star, btw."
Ana grins.
Wolf grins from the top of Mark's head.
Mark says, "Having the dicussions may well sort out who should be the head staffer."
Chouli nods to nails.
Atticus says, "The problem is the scarcity of getting everyone together for a proper conversation."
nails says, "Yes, Atticus."
nails points to what Ana said.
Ambrosia says, "Chouli: In my opinion, you should gather the most active people on said MU*, Choili, and talk about that Problem. Get suggestions, get ideas. Usually, who is probably suited as a MU* god will show then, as well as general trends for the theme. Then agree on one, get a MU* god in position, and start things."
Ana says, "A discussion board is also helpful for that."
Mark says, "Use a forum system or email exchanges for conversations in addition to live discussion"
Ana says, "Especially if you have people in different time zones."
Alice says, "Well, that`s the trouble."
Atticus says, "I don't mean a delayed-action discussion by bulletin boards or +job systems."
Ambrosia says, "I should also note that the situation I described about those three MU*s I mentioned.."
Ambrosia says, "All has another thing in common:"
Atticus says, "Those rarely work nearly as well as a proper, sit-down type like this."
Ambrosia says, "A single MU* God wanting to start their game."
nails says, "They aren't a replacement."
Melodia says, "Amrosia, I'd say such things are simply common because so many people want thier own games."
Ambrosia says, "IF a -group- has an inital idea, things might be easer since they tend more to motivating each other as a while."
Nymeria says, "I think it can be difficult having a core of too many people involved in making the initial decisions that shape the MU*, though. So lots of people isn't always an advantage, if they all want a say."
Atticus says, "Single-god MU*s do work -- as long as the god remains motivated."
Ambrosia says, "Meloia: Yep :> Nothing bad about that per se."
Grey says, "I find they work better, personally. A job system lets people flesh out their comments and add a large chunk of text about their take or idea."
Sally says, "However, if you need a sit down type discussion for every single last thing, it's going to take an extremely long time to come to consensus on a great many things. :) At first, and periodically going forward it's great, but it should not be the only thing."
Ambrosia says, "Atticus: Exactly!"
Atticus has been working on a MUD in his spare time for the past 6 /months/. It's never gone beyond local hosting for testing. Why've I stuck with it? because every few days I get a friend MSNing me saying 'Hey! how's your MUD doing? I can't wait to play it!'
Ambrosia grins. "That's another kind of building a MU*. Doing it -all- yourself, and get staff and players when it is ready for opening."
Atticus says, "Considering I have the attention span of a gnat, this is a fairly startling thing."
nails says, "I'd also point out that what you're listing as a disadvantage (staff in different time zones or on different schedules) is something that many active games try to recruit."
nails says, "Round the clock staff activity is often considered a bonus."
Mark says, "It makes the initial discussions more difficult but is a good idea for open games."
Ana nods. I definitely don't think different scheduled staff is a bad thing. It just makes it difficult in a democracy where you need everyone to make a decision.
Ambrosia nods. "Several games have the problem of not having any staffers in a general region of timezones, while having players from there."
Ambrosia says, "Those players usually don't have any admin person to speak to while they are online."
Mark says, "However, I'd not use geographic location as a single point for hiring someone."
Ambrosia says, "While @mail works, several things need direct communications."
Ambrosia nods to Mark. "That's the conflict there :>"
Sally says, "There's different ways people can weigh in on issues too - some sort of +voting system for issues, etc."
Melodia says, "Not geographical, some people stay up overnight, etc."
Mark says, "Sure, I used the term loosely"
Mark says, "Schedule would have been more accurate."
nails says, "Maybe the problem is not having enough time before coming up with an issue requiring a decision, and the time by which decisions are due."
nails says, "If you decide you need input, but are not willing to wait more than say, half an hour, then yes you will have a problem getting a consensus."
Selene offers, "I've been staff all of a month, and it seems to me, with the ticket system, if something needs to be discussed, and times aren't normally congruent, we can schedule a special time for face to face.
Ambrosia drops a pin.
Alice jumps.
Alice says, "Don`t scare. I`ve been trying to fit that around."
Ambrosia says, "Okay, seems like everybody's waiting for everybody to continue, mh? :>"
nails says, "So."
Alice says, "Isn`t long wait in MUSHes a no-no for it`s workings?"
nails says, "Define 'long'."
Alice says, "Week."
Ana says, "Depends on the issue too."
Ambrosia nods. "A week is rather long for most issues, tho."
Wolf runs from the gren...oh wait, it was the safe kind of pin.
Ambrosia says, "usually decisions that directly influence a player character should be handled quickly."
Ambrosia says, "The outcome of those decisions may change a player's RP or actions, and while the decision isn't made yet, usually the player is waiting or only doing small-scale RP."
Alice says, "What about problems we face in our MUSH, there? Like choozing head wizard, and setting up theme? I`ve been thinking, that those are better to be set ASAP, not to lose player interest."
nails says, "Give me some examples of things that can wait a week, those that can wait 3 days, those that need to be decided today."
Ana says, "Decisions like whether or not to open a new area would probably take longer to decide than issues like whether or not a player can do something with a current plot."
Mark says, "I've never been involved in a group that doesn't that a theme before launch."
Ambrosia says, "Today or tomorrow: Decision about a char's life or death, about a scene having to be retconned, about a char in chargen approval being a-okay or not after some discussion and handing the decision to the higher ups because of something out of the ordinary."
Chouli says, "me either."
nails says, "This is a rather unique situation."
nails says, "The game is set up and the staff picked before the theme has been decided on."
Ambrosia says, "a few days: Proceedings in a TP, that isn't too fast-paced, discussion of plans for opening, for example, a business by a player etc."
nails says, "There is no single vision. There is no originating head wiz."
nails says, "The staff weren't picked based on any criteria other than they were the first ten or so that said "I'll take a wizbit"."
Ambrosia says, "week or more: Long time discussions about general progress of theme, website additions, long-term code additions etc."
Atticus says, "All the game has so far is basic MUSH stuff. A parent room, +commands. Nothing IC and nothing theme-related."
Atticus says, "And no head wiz to decide it, and 5~ different theme ideas."
Chouli says, "I think, and Atticus can correct me if I'm wrong, that part of the push for a democratic style of development is the fact that nothing holds us together except a common experience of Shangrila, and that who has the right to boss anyone else around or pick the theme over anyone else, since none of us technically own the sandbox. I think that's part of what is slowing us down."
Mark says, "The complete lack of direction seems rather counter-intuitive to anything more than a social setting."
Chouli nods to Mark. "I agree totally."
Atticus says, "Yeah, Chouli's got it exactly. Other people might feel resentful if one person starts bossing the others around."
Ambrosia says, "nails: That's a first, raw listing off the top o' my little head."
nails says, "The problem I see with the current environment is that there a great push to Get Things Done, and to Do It Now, without paying enough attention to the structure, and without allowing time for that structure to be formulated."
Chouli nods to nails.
nails says, "It's a collection of snap decisions, and who is making them depends on who is on at the given moment."
Chouli says, "but, conversely, nails, I think that what else is happening is that some people are losing motivation because there's no real momentum, just patchwork."
Mark says, "Of the five ideas, is there any chance of down selection without offending any of the current staff? Also, do you honestly feel that a randomly assembled group has any hope of becoming a cohesive unit?"
nails says, "There seems to be a reluctance to wait even 24 hours for consensus, and a reluctance to use tools like the bboards and +jobs code to assist with non-realtime communication."
Chouli says, "heh. nails. It's like every man for himself there."
Alice says, "Hey, that`s not entirely true."
Ambrosia says, "Give everybody a wizbit. Let @nuke sort them out ;P"
Ambrosia ducks.
Mark grins.
Wolf chuckles.
Chouli says, "that's what we've done."
Alice says, "It just happens this way, that lion`s share of work is on about half of staff, and others are milling around, waiting for theme."
Chouli says, "I don't think anymore coding should be done until we have a theme."
Mark says, "The theme will drive a lot of the development."
Ambrosia nods. "No sense in coding more without a theme.
Atticus says, "Most of the non-IC-related code is already done anyway."
Alice says, "Indeed."
Chouli says, "beyond the basic globals that come with the sandbox."
Alice says, "That`s why I think that ASAP theme is imperative."
Ambrosia says, "Perhaps you should stop for a moment.."
Chouli says, "but what I'm hearing, Alice, is that we need a godstaff first."
Ambrosia says, "And explain to those here who don't know anything about the sandbox how exactly said MU* initially got started?"
Atticus says, "Also, on a chat or social MU*, there's definitely no need for the amount of staff we currently have. They're generally don't require much upkeep."
Alice says, "Indeed."
nails says, "I disagree."
Mark says, "But who is going to make the decision to reduce the staff?"
Ambrosia coughs :>
Ambrosia says, "Yo Shangrilaaans. 'splain."
Melodia says, "Eh...depends on how large it gets, plus social MUs can still be RP friendly and have themes."
Wolf says, "I'd say a Social MU* requires a fair bit of staffing imho. Yep Melodia."
Alice says, "Ambrozia, the trouble is, that some of the staff have nary an idea of basic building, let alone maintaining coding and MUSH globals."
nails says, "The staffing needs of a Social game differ from those of an RP game, but any place with an active playerbase requires oversight."
Alice says, "So, naturally, those are geared to deal with social issues."
Ambrosia says, "Alice: That doesn't answer the question about how said MU* initially got created. Sandbox? No God? eh?"
Ambrosia says, "That's what I'm askin :>"
Alice says, "Ask nails."
nails says, "I disagree with the statement that social games do not require code."
Ambrosia says, "It seems a rather unusual situation, from what I've heard so far."
Chouli says, "I don't think that's a problem, Alice. People can be taught to build. We happen to be lucky. We have coders around who want to code. Most people who start games are desperate for coders."
nails says, "I disagree with the belief that head wizzes must be coders."
Chouli says, "I do too."
Atticus says, "nails and co. created The Game out of nothing. They advertise on a different MU*: 'Hey! You want a wizbit? Come gettit!' And thus, The Game was populated."
Ambrosia ahs. "Okay."
Ambrosia says, "Thanks Atticus :>"
Atticus, succint and to the point.
Alice says, "nails, I think that there should be at least one coder on MUSH at most of times, to deal with something unexpected..."
Wolf puts a sign. "Atticus for MU* God."
Alice says, "That`s what I suggested, too."
Atticus pff.
Mark says, "Maybe that is the solution, Wolf. Have a democratic election and run with it."
Sally says, "It'd be nice if everyone could do everything, at least a little, but as long as every need is fulfilled by someone and at least one backup, you should be good."
Chouli says, "but that doesn't mean the coder needs to be the godstaff."
Alice says, "We were going to."
Wolf <-- helpful, like Typhoid.
Ambrosia says, "Democratically vote the dictatorship head ;)"
Alice says, "Eh..."
nails says, "I can point you to a number of games where the head staffer does not code. I can point you to social games that have a mindbending amount of code."
Mark says, "Those that do not like the results will disappear; others will remain that are willing to work under that person's direction."
nails says, "Conventional wisdom is often wrong."
Alice says, "Well.. Yes."
Alice says, "But I still say, that coders should be in game most of time."
nails says, "And yes."
Grey says, "I don't Alice."
nails says, "I agree with what Sally said."
Alice says, "Why not?"
Mark says, "Well written code often requires little maintenance"
Chouli nods to Mark.
Grey quotes Mark.
Alice says, "Well.... ... You got me there."
Wolf grins at Mark.
Alice says, "After fine-tune, it`s a smoothride."
Ambrosia bows and shall use the opportunity to take a small break, since others here seem to be more connected and up to date to said game and it's dynamics. :> "I'll be back in about 50 minutes. Don't start any party without me."
Mark says, "I code but after I finish a project, I do not think about it again unless it needs enhancement"
Atticus saves Ambrosia some punch.
Ana nods to Mark.
Grey staffs on a game with a ton of code, and the only really 'need to fix bugs' in the last year were when Anomaly and I tossed up the Jobs 5.0 beta.
Mark says, "On the coder==god front, many coders do not have thematic creativity."
Alice says, "True."
Atticus pfff.
Atticus says, "Maybe not /bad/ coders."
Alice says, "That`s why I`m pushing Atticus ahead of me. ^_^"
Ana says, "Probably depends on the theme. :)"
Atticus says, "/Good/ coders often need a lot of creativity. ;)"
Mark says, "Sure but not necessarily in the theme area"
Chouli says, "but there's a difference between creativity and theme creativity."
nails says, "Back in the Time Before Time, the 'God' of games was often the guy who had the technical ability to find a site, compile crude buggy code, and get things running. But I'd also point out: Welcome to the 21st century. We're not playing our atary 2600s anymore either."
Chouli nods to nails.
Atticus says, "Hey now, some of us are."
Atticus beep beep boop.
Mark says, "True enough nails. That's how I started one game but the theme aspects were handed off to someone else long before it opened."
nails says, "Admit it. You're playing an emulator on your 1-2ghz pc."
Atticus looks ashamed.
Chouli has the atari flashback. Got it for xmas.
Selene chuckles.
Chouli hushes.
Atticus says, "So which is better? Head God choosing theme or finding common consensus?"
nails says, "In general or in your circumstance?"
Grey says, "Depends on the game."
Chouli says, "I think a good head god could mediate a consensus on the theme."
Grey says, "Or ultimately the game type, which leads to the theme."
Mark says, "I think most games inherit the god and consensus. In your situation, I'd find a leader."
Chouli nods to Grey.
Alice says, "Yes... I agree with that."
Grey says, "IE WOD: You can choose the theme fairly easily."
Atticus says, "Vampires! Werewolves. Repeat ad nauseum."
Alice says, "WOD?"
nails says, "World of Darkness"
Alice says, "No, thanks."
Alice says, "I`ve played it, when I was little."
nails says, "right. It was an example."
Alice says, "Do I look like Malkavian, now?"
nails says, "How about Star Wars?"
Alice says, "Eh..."
nails says, "Alice, I am not suggesting themes for your game."
Ana is working on a SW game now. :)
nails says, "I am responding to Grey's point."
Alice says, "I`ve been wishing to go along with Atticus idea of multithemed world."
Grey says, "IE Original Fantasy: The theme and setting need to be created from scratch, and developed. An honestly having more than two or three people making the big initial decisions causes more work, and everyone to toss in ideas on their favourite race/spell/etc."
Melodia thinks in this case it should be something fairly generic, whatEVER the case.
Wolf says, "I would say find a leader."
Atticus says, "Not necessarily generic, but catering to a wide variety of tastes."
Alice says, "Yes."
Atticus says, "There's a big difference."
Mark says, "Multi-themes might be a solution since I do not think you will reach a single consensus."
Grey says, "This, in fact, completely colours my opinions of the role of a God. The choise of the theme, dictates the workload which the God must perform."
Grey says, "Er, The choice..."
Atticus thinks there's more then enough high-fantasy games out there to begin with. If I see another game with elves in it I will barf.
nails says, "Atticus. Buddy."
Atticus knocks nails over.
nails says, "There's more than enough <fill in the blank>."
Grey says, "Maybe, Atticus. This isn't a discussion about what themes people like though, but the problems in starting a game."
nails says, "It's a tired axe."
Atticus says, "Not so. Name me a zombie apocalypse game!"
nails will name five.
Atticus says, "A Fallout-style game would be rad too."
Mark says, "I do not think you want more people involved in choosing a theme."
nails says, "So yes, lets get back on point while the meds are still working."
Alice says, "Fallout?"
Alice says, "Why`d you been silent?"
Atticus says, "But the problem with less people choosing a theme is that some of the current staffers would probably leave."
Mark says, "That is likely to happen one way or the other."
nails says, "Ideas for theme being thrown out. I'm hearing Grey talk about some of the effects of what that decision might mean for staff."
Atticus says, "Ie: if everyone banded together and picked a head god and the god declares 'This is our theme!:' some people would probably go like 'ehh.' and wander off."
Selene asks, "And I honestly mean this...If you have a good theme, and a good headwiz, even if you have staff leave, they're usually easily replaced, aren't they?"
nails says, "That has already happened. Some people have wandered off."
Mark says, "Sure, it happens on developing games all the time too. Some people lose interest or do not quite agree with how the theme is being put together"
Atticus says, "Well then more would."
nails says, "You can work with who is around. You can hire new staff."
Alice says, "Yes..."
Grey says, "So the choice is then either 1) Chose no theme and thus make no forward progress? or, 2) Chose the most popular theme and move forward with those which support it?"
Alice says, "That sounds like it`s playable by ear."
nails says, "If you're worried about stepping on people's toes, Atticus..."
Mark nods to Alice, "staff are somewhat like the employees of a business."
Selene nods, "And if you have a theme, then those interested in that cause would be more likely to stick put. And others interested could later feed the staff pool."
Atticus says, "'Most popular theme' doesn't mean much when nobody comments on themes that have been proposed."
nails says, "Encourage them to do so."
Alice says, "Indeed."
Atticus needs 10 minutes or so to rewrap his bandages. BRB.
Mark says, "Or find individuals who share your ideals and go start a game elsewhere."
Grey says, "Hence a tracking system like +jobs. You open a Forum job for each of the proposed 5 themes with an outline and ask people to comments with ideas, with concerns and fifure out what people think."
Ack enters from the Forum.
Ack has arrived.
Alice says, "How bout picking a certain theme, and saying - "Who`s got something against, speak up by <date>, or be silent?""
nails says, "How about setting up the decision making process first?"
Mark agrees with nails
nails says, "Get everybody on board with the method by which theme will be decided."
nails says, "Then, everybody gets to participate in that process."
nails says, "Theme is picked, if those who don't like it leave, they have at least agreed to the process by which the decision was made."
Selene agrees with nails too. Sounds...dare I say it, logical.
nails says, "Oh."
nails says, "You're here."
nails waves to Ack.
Atticus returns early. "But how do you decide on the decision making process? It's an infinite loop. Does not compute."
nails says, "Why?"
Atticus says, "Does the head god just go 'ok, we're gonna vote on this whether you want to or not'?"
nails says, "Deciding on a method does not have the same pitfalls as deciding on a theme."
Grey goes home.
Grey has left.
Ack waves in back.
nails says, "It is a completely different type of decision."
Atticus hmms.
nails says, "You spend a little time and effort thinking about what would be considered fair to all parties, in terms of options and time frames, figure out if it's one voice one vote or not, put it forth and ask people if it sounds reasonable."
nails says, "If someone has an issue with it, hey. You can adapt it. Fine tune it."
nails says, "Then you have your process."
nails says, "x number of days later, you use it. You pick a theme."
nails says, "And you move on with your life."
nails says, "And I move on with mine."
Alice says, "Heh. I think that`ll work."
nails says, "Who knows. Maybe this method you come up with is... like. Reusable."
Alice says, "Atticus, how about just putting on vote the themes, we already have?"
Atticus says, "What sort of method did you have in mind? +vote? Bboards?"
nails says, "I had in mind that you'd sort it out yourself."
Alice says, "Your voting system."
nails says, "The time and effort part. That's where you come in."
Atticus pff. "My voting system is a crude attempt at getting everyone coherent. It's barely useable."
nails says, "Fix it?"
nails says, "Use something else?"
Alice says, "I think it`s adequate. We can fine-tune it later, should we need to."
Atticus says, "So anyway, what I meant mostly was the decision-making process itself. I've never had such a situation, anyway, and this is supposedly more of an in-general talk anyway. I've always seen the head wiz just do all the decision making, and if the staff doesn't like it they can feel free to leave."
Mark nods, "A voting process need not be complex. A job for each topic. Have each person place one vote comment for their choice."
Atticus says, "So I dunno what would be the best method."
Alice says, "Atticus, we`ll manage."
Atticus says, "Anyway. Let's assume a game has a head wiz, and then a theme. What next? There'd be an initial burst of creativity again, and then Ambrosia's scenario of people dwindling would likely kick in."
Mark says, "Frankly, I do not see that a randomly assembled body is going to reach a consensus. Any direction you take will step one someone's toes but if you are to move forward, a direction has to be chosen."
Chouli says, "not if you have a good god and people committed to the game. You need to have a god who knows how to coordinate people."
Atticus says, "Should advertising for more staff be done after the theme is chosen?"
nails says, "It would kick in if the chosen head wiz drops the ball."
nails says, "Advertising for more staff should happen when more staff is needed."
Chouli says, "and we already have enough staff for what we are doing at the present, imo."
Atticus laughs. That's because we're not doing anything yet.
nails says, "As Alice pointed out earlier, staff is not 100% utilized at this point, pending the theme decision."
Mark says, "Most of my success has been with getting around 3 people working the idea. Once the details of the theme are in place, individual projects get started for building the grid, writing the code, and working up documentation."
Chouli says, "no, even if we were doing stuff. You don't need that big of a staff to develop a game."
nails says, "The actual headcount number isn't a particularly useful metric."
Mark says, "As those project details are established, additional staff are added to fill in areas where help is needed."
Chouli nods to nails.
Atticus says, "What about if the head wiz decides to get rid of some of the staff he/she doesn't like?"
nails says, "Different games staff differently depending on their style of governance and their style of play. Which, as Grey pointed out, is often tied to theme."
Mark says, "That's why I said it was my experience. :)"
Chouli says, "we can make head staff contingent on all of us staying."
Atticus says, "Is it the head wizz's perogative to do that or should they vote?"
nails says, "Furthermore, a game has different staffing needs at different points in its development cycle."
Chouli votes atticus off the island. Claims immunity.
nails says, "You don't need a lot of newbie helpers and RP judges (if your theme calls for such) when you don't have an active playerbase."
Atticus wins the immunity challenge and backstabs Chouli after she doesn't let him go on the cruise and eat lobster.
nails says, "How about drafting a constitution?"
nails says, "Staff Bill of Rights?"
Atticus hmmms.
nails says, "Nothing I'm suggesting hasn't been done before."
nails says, "on a MU or elsewhere."
Mark has to depart due to RL guests. "Enjoy the rest of the discussion/day. :)"
nails says, "(Viva la revolution)"
Selene thanks Mark for his time!
Chouli has to go to RL too. Thanks for hosting this talk, nails, Mark.
Atticus waves to Mark.
Mark says, "Sure thing. Good luck to you all."
Atticus waves to Chouli, too.
Chouli waves and hugs whoever wants a hug and jets.
Mark goes home.
Mark has left.
nails quotes Inara. "Every problem is an opportunity for a solution."
nails waves.
Selene waves to Chouli.
Chouli says, "when god closes a door he opens a window!"
Chouli goes.
Chouli goes home.
Chouli has left.
nails says, "It is a lot of work."
nails says, "That's the one thing most people don't realize when they set out to start a project like this from scratch."
nails says, "Many games who do have that initial vision, and a strong willed head wiz, and a cohesive hand-picked staff still fail to realize their master plan because it is so much work."
nails says, "You've got a few extra hurdles, but some might consider them small potatoes in the grand scheme of things."
Alice says, "Work is an opportunity to practice skills."
nails says, "But if you can't overcome those hurdles, you're not going to have a shot at the ones everybody else faces as well."
nails says, "Everyone who is staff on SC made a request to join."
nails says, "Everyone has the opportunity to walk away."
Alice says, "Never."
nails says, "Some already have."
nails says, "So the question comes down to: What do you want?"
Alice says, "nails, it`s a matter of personal preference. I want a GAME."
Atticus says, "Tacos."
nails says, "Do you want this to work? Do you have any vision as to what it could be? Do you like the idea of working along side your fellow recruits?"
Alice says, "I want to have something I could be a-chally proud to say I`ve helped to make."
nails says, "Tacos are easy."
Atticus says, "And delicious!"
nails says, "@admin money_name_plural=Tacos"
Alice says, "No, thanks."
nails says, "and @admin money_name_singular=Taco"
Alice says, "A pity it`s not possible to set them different in different world parts."
Atticus says, "That's just for builder credits. IC money is a whole different bag of cats."
Alice says, "Depends."
Atticus says, "Anyway. What were we talking about again? Besides tacos?"
Alice says, "I`ve beeb on games, where it`s the same."
nails says, "You're starting from pretty close to square 1. You've got a lot of work ahead of you. You probably need to think very carefully how, as a group, you're going to make progress."
nails says, "Progress as in progression, as in a series of choices moving you in whatever direction you want to go."
Atticus says, "You also have to ask if anyone really has the ambition or drive needed to be head wiz and make the game succeed. It takes a lot of effort."
Alice says, "nails, do you have any direcly-practical advice you think we must heed?"
Atticus says, "I think most people who are on just want to putter around once in a while as a hobby."
Alice says, "Like, "don`t eat tacos"?"
nails has been giving you that every day. :)
nails says, "Use +jobs."
Wolf chuckles.
Atticus says, "I'm talking about for the head wiz, not for normal staff."
Minion says, "+jobs are your friend."
nails says, "Work with the consensus."
Melodia has disconnected.
Atticus says, "Like, what if there's *nobody* suited for a job as head wiz?"
nails says, "Hire one."
Alice says, "Then pick me."
nails says, "Pick one that is suited, pick one that isn't suited, hire someone who may or may not be."
Atticus says, "Learn to use commas properly, Alice, and then we'll talk. ;)"
nails says, "Or just shut the game down."
nails says, "Options are everywhere."
Alice says, "Hey..."
Alice says, "That was pause coma."
nails says, "Hmm."
nails says, "Perhaps we schedule another discussion in a few weeks "How to handle staff infighting.""
Atticus says, "Easy. Time-out chair. And no cookies after nap."
Selene grins.
Alice says, "Good idea."
Alice says, "I think that`sa just fibbing, if honestly."
nails really thinks you need to figure out how to work as a group, either by everybody giving a thumbs up or by having actual process and procedure in place, before you can work on the game itself.
nails says, "That's the bottom line."
Alice says, "Got it."
nails says, "Maybe if the staff you have isn't going to get the job done, you open it up to a second round of interviews."
nails says, "Not that any of you were interviewed."
Atticus says, "Even if you didn't pick the staff in the first place"
Atticus says, "?"
nails says, "The other option is that the staff you have gets the job done."
Alice says, "Well, Atticus... It`s complicated."
Alice says, "I guess we ought to try our current staff, first."
Alice says, "It`s not so bad."
Melodia has connected.
Alice says, "WB."
Melodia nods "Stupid computer"
nails says, "So, what have we gotten out of the discussion?"
Ana says, "Use +jobs. ;)"
Alice says, "Yes."
nails grins at Ana.
Wolf grins at Ana as well.
Atticus has reinforced his love of tacos, which is always a good thing.
Melodia missed the last 20 minutes.
nails says, "Choice of theme can shape how many and what kind of staff is needed."
nails says, "Benevolent, reluctant dictatoral guidance at the helm is generally a good thing, although it's better for staff to just work together without being smacked."
nails says, "Constant input of energy is needed to keep a game active."
Alice says, "nails... In short. We need to shape up, choze leader and theme, and get on with making it... Right?"
nails says, "Yes, but in a controlled, methodical fashion."
Minion says, "Or with explosives."
nails says, "Document, document, document."
nails says, "Or dynamite, dynamite, dynamite."
Alice says, "While I love second option, I opt for first."
Selene has disconnected.
Minion wishes Duke had opted for the first. I might still have all my fingers.
nails says, "Everybody, this is Minion."
Brazil is sensing that most of your problems find their center near Duke, Minion. :)
nails says, "Minion has a lot of experience, having staffed on more games than you can count on her fingers."
Ana says, "Hi Minion. :)"
Wolf grins at Minion.
Sally grins.
Minion says, "Most people call me stumpy. :) And, yes, Brazil. Had I been able to escape the basement I wouldn't have married him and still be healthy."
nails says, "And Melodia, I'll get you a copy of the log."
Wolf says, "Duke tends to opt for the explosives though."
nails says, "Where are we at?"
nails says, "Are people running out of steam?"
nails says, "Time for punch and pie?"
Alice says, "Frankly... Yes."
Minion says, "Ice cream?"
nails makes Minion's ala mode.
Atticus, on his second bag of jelly beans.
Minion <3s nails.
Alice says, "I`ve been hoping you might suggest something quirky we haven`t thought about."
nails says, "It's all pretty basic. Just not easy. :)"
Alice says, "Sadly, yes."
Sally says, "Following proven strategies works excellently."
Ana mmms. Pie.
Minion says, "There's nothing quirky about running a game that will work. The most important thing to remember is, give people work to do. Let them know there are consequences to not doing it. Document those consequences. Make sure everyone knows about them. Assign deadlines to jobs. If people don't meet them, boot their asses. :)"
nails says, "Minoin is mean."
Wolf becomes a Minion-hat.
Alice says, "I like how she thinks."
Brazil says, "Fillet Minion?"
Ack says, "A lot of talented people have priorities above MU*ing, ie families, jobs, pursuing deviant behaviour... so you have to be kind of easy with the deadline/booting thing."
Atticus was just about to say that.
Wolf thinks a lot like Minion.
Minion says, "No, you don't. :)"
nails says, "The other issue with the booting is that if you're too good at it, you run out of people to boot."
nails says, "Which means changing your name and starting over."
Minion says, "I have priorities above mushing. :) I still get my work done."
Minion says, "Repeatedly not getting things done because of one crisis or another means the person needs to step aside until their life settles down."
Wolf does too.
Atticus is a card-carrying slacker. 'Work' is for chumps who can't figure out a way to get out of doing it.
nails steps aside.
Brazil is randomly obessisive and manages well enough to be functional.
Wolf grins at Brazil.
Sally says, "Then being a Wizard might not be for you. :)"
Nymeria says, "Though, if you have a staff system that doesn't assign specific tasks to specific people, it doesn't hurt to keep the less active people around as backups. As long as they don't hold up decisions."
Atticus has adminned on various games the past 10~ years just fine. Doesn't take much actual work, if you don't consider MU*ing work. ;)
nails nods.
Minion says, "No. Less active people that don't do shit are a waste of DB space."
nails looks at Minion.
Ack says, "I personally tend to do an ass-load of work for like a week and then end up being tied up for a month but then end up having time again the next month."
nails says, "How much time would you say you spend on these TPS reports?"
Nymeria says, "If they are useful a few times a year, and don't do any harm the rest of the year, I am fine with keeping them on. :)"
Brazil practies sneering, "Yeer not worth the memory to store your dbref. Move off."
nails says, "My feeling is that it's less about everybody doing X amount of work."
Minion shrugs. "Everyone has their way of doing something. Someone only useful a few times a year is a great player but a shitty staff member in my opinion."
nails says, "It's more a case of if you say you will do X, then you do X."
Sally nods to nails.
Ack says, "DB space is hardly an issue on most machines... and a lot of players find a full "WHO list" attractive despite what the idleness column says."
Atticus says, "Or wizzes who are at least around, if not active."
Minion says, "I wasn't commenting on actual space, Ack. I was just making a statement. :) But, useless staff are a waste of db space in that you don't need them around."
Brazil says, "Ah...but players are aware that games can padd the WHO list, so they don't trust that as an indicator."
Minion nodnods.
Wolf says, "Hence they tend to ask as guests: how many active players do you have?"
nails says, "Luckily we don't pad the WHO list here."
nails coughs.
nails says, "So."
nails says, "Once you have a staff structure in place, it's good to be clear about expectations."
Minion nodnods.
nails says, "Expectations do not need to be uniform across all staff, although you may want to have some baseline."
Brazil says, "It's really tough to manipulate a crowd for a long period, and once they catch you lying, you don't get that back."
nails says, "And people can at that point say "Here's what I can promise". If that works, great."
Ack says, "like 100,000 characters of code or documentation per week?"
Brazil says, "As a player, you have alts, and you get to tell stories. As staff, it's better to just keep your mouth shut."
Ambrosia returns :>
Alice says, "WB."
Wolf waves.
Ambrosia waves.
nails says, "Or: I can work on x project, and I can have it done by y, assuming z doesn't change."
nails says, "(hint: z always changes)"
nails says, "Any questions?"
Atticus says, "That's the reason why I prefer the violent dicatorship stance of MU* creation. Build it yourself, host it yourself, code it yourself, and if your staff doesn't like it they can leave."
nails says, "It's lonely at the top."
Ack says, "Well... +jobs kind of enforces that kind of behaviour."
Atticus says, "Then the only reason at all it'll fail is bacuse of you, not someone else."
Brazil says, "That can work, but..I've seen that fail, too."
nails says, "It's good that your framework is based around failure, Atticus."
Brazil says, "Heh."
nails says, "That's a positive indicator."
Ack says, "I dunno... having staffed at Treyvan and DL:AoM, I've seen a benevolent, low-key, democratic leadership work rather well."
Atticus wouldnt' want to admin on a game if I didn't like something about it and had no way of changing it. ;)
Atticus says, "I'm not saying the other types are bad at all, it's just what I prefer. I can build, code, and have tons of experience knowing what players want, so other adminds tend to get in the way."
Alice says, "Thanks a lot, Atticus."
Atticus says, "This is for MUDs, mind you, where everything is topsy turvy and hamburgers eat people."
Atticus says, "MUSH is a different matter entirely."
Ack says, "There are placed I've played as a player and I was pretty annoyed with the dictator-type headwiz. He had a 'vision' and if you didn't like his vision, then you were asked to leave."
Minion says, "Not really. People think that, but I've run both and it's the same. Different types of dumb asses, but it's all the same in the end."
Brazil says, "That kind of approach with that kind of focus can work if you are able to do it all yourself...because without leaving opportunities for others to contribute, you will pretty much be doing it yourself."
Atticus says, "It generally only works if you've got the drive to do that much work, which is pretty lacking in most of today's admins."
nails says, "So."
nails says, "How does this apply to the project that is in front of you?"
Atticus iunno.
nails.
nails says, "Any other questions?"
Alice says, "I`m cool. As cubes."
Alice says, "Literally."
nails says, "On the internet, nobody knows you're a penguin."
Alice says, "I wish I was."
Atticus says, "Or.. do they.."
Brazil says, "I'm not a penguin, and I have pictures to proof it."
Brazil says, "Er...well, prove even."
Ana says, "Can I buy a penguin on the Internet?"
Alice says, "It`s -15 here, but they put central heating on like it`s still 0."
Wolf says, "Probably."
nails says, "We got in trouble last time we tried that, Brazil. Remember, you used the same stock photo as me?"
Brazil says, "You should be at least able to contribute to a zoo which will happily tell you that it's for the penguins."
Alice says, "Heh."
Wolf says, "http://www.penguinwarehouse.com/index.php"
nails says, "And we had to tell everyone we were twins? That was a big ol mess."
Atticus says, "'Wow! You both look like.. Fabio?!' 'Uh.. We're twins.'"
Brazil hehs at nails.
Ana laughs!
nails says, "Well, thank you all for coming over and joining our little discussion."
Ana says, "Thanks for having us. :)"
nails says, "I hope we have all grown a little."
Alice says, "No problem... It was for our benefit."
nails' pasta salad helped his belly grow.
Atticus wants a taco now.
nails says, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're talking with your mouth full."
nails is going to end the log.
Ana says, "I am on Weight Watchers. No taco for me. :("
nails says, "Everybody say goodbye to the log."
Alice says, "On the internet, noone knows you`re really a girl."
Atticus says, "Goodbye log!"
Ana says, "Buhbye log!"
Wolf chews. "Mrphllle wurfllphnnlly"
Alice says, "Cya, log."
Nymeria waves to the log.
Wolf sits down and starts singing about gold.