Ide says, "thanks everyone for coming to MPUG's Talk Night"
Ide says, "This talk is titled MUSH and new RPGs. The formal talk night will go for about 90 minutes, which includes a brief presentation, but I want to go to discussion as soon as possible thereafter. If anyone has a question at any time during this first part feel free to raise a hand and ask it."
Ide says, "But first I want to ask a question -- I don't see too many faces from Sunday's talk. How many people here RP on a regular basis -- at least once a week? Define RP however you want."
Mel raises her hand.
Sponge does not.
Hayleigh has connected.
Grey roleplays regularly.
Ide says, "also, who here is familiar with sites such as Story Games, the Forge, and RPG.net?"
imp enters from the Forum.
imp has arrived.
Grey is.
Ide says, "hey imp, Hayleigh, we're just getting started"
Announcement: nails shouts, "@tel #399 for the Talk Night discussion"
Feydra has arrived.
Ide says, "hi Feydra, welcome"
Feydra waves!
Torianos has arrived.
Adam is familiar with them, Ide.
Kalina has arrived.
Mel has glanced at them.
Disraeli knows RPG.net, and RPs far too much...
Jon has arrived.
nails says, "All I know from RPG.net is Ab3 stories. I love Ab3."
Kalina flops on Tori.
Ide says, "hi Torianos, Kalina -- we've just begun. If you don't know the topic of this Talk Night is mush games and new RPGs. I just asked how many people RP at least once a week, and if they've heard of sites such as Story Games and the Forge."
Wine knows of RPG.net
Kalina knows RPG.net. And the Forge.
Jon is a very infrequent visitor of Forge.
Torianos waves to Ide. "I'm also familiar with them, more so with the RPing than the websites but I've been around the Forge a bit."
impRPs more than once a week, and does not know Story Games or the Forge.
Muse RPs regularly and is familiar with them.
Ide says, "Final question, how many people here besides nails were at Sunday's discussion?"
Hayleigh RPs alot, but while I've heard of them, I haven't visited them
Ide says, "OK, like I suspected I think this is a different group"
Ide says, "I'll begin then"
Feydra knows of the Forge but that's it personally
Ide says, "I'll be going a little quickly, so page me if you'd like me to slow down"
Feydra Rps lots though.
Ide says, "and feel free to ask questions -- we'll go to open discussion shortly."
Ide says, "On Sunday we talked about ideas like GM-less/GM-full games, narrative control, and scene framing. Tonight we can consider thing like character goals and relations, abstracted and meta- resources, and relationship mechanics as well. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time, so we may just hit the ideas briefly at first and see what people are interested in."
Ide says, "what we're going to do here is present several concepts from new RPGs. I'd like everyone to follow along with a couple of basic assumptions. First is that while many people RP without any mechanics or systems at all ('freeform RP' you could say), we're going to focus on RPG systems and mechanics, especially those in new tabletop (TT) games. Second is that these ideas from 'new RPGs' aren't necessarily 'new' ideas -- just ideas from recent games. However, recently there has been a critical mass of new games with similar ideas -- in other words, something is changing in the landscape of RPG systems and mechanics. We're going to see how to apply this to RP on mushes."
Jon says, "Is there a log of the previous discussion?"
Ide says, "it'll be posted soon at mush.pennmush.org, Jon"
Ide says, "Especially relevant here is the idea that even freeform games can be said to have a system of their own -- so when I say system, I don't just mean rolling dice and comparing attribute values."
Adam says, "Is the focus on designing MUSH games or on stuff from the player perspective?"
Sketch_Fox has arrived.
Ide says, "more on designing the games Adam, but if the players can't grok it, of course that is relevant"
Sketch_Fox waves. X)
Ide says, "hey Sketch ;)"
nails says, "My Sketch collection is complete."
nails will be stuffing and mounting later this evening.
Adam covers his eyes.
Kalina giggles.
Ide says, "The premise of my talk is that -most- RP systems on current mush games take one of two forms -- freeform RP, with little in the way of mechanics to decide how the story unfolds, and GM-run RP, where admin and staff hold the ultimate decision on how the story unfolds. Naturally, both forms can occur on the same mush, but in that event GM-run RP usually takes precedence. There are a wide variety of RPG systems that fall between these poles."
Ide says, "Let's consider these concepts: player-character (PC) fate and goals, passing narrative control, world/prop/scene creation and ownership, scene framing, alternatives to xp, abstracted scenes/resources, and relationship mechanics."
Ide says, "Adam brings up a good question -- when I say 'the story', what do I mean?"
(Adam paged that question -- of course I left out all the stuff he said about nails ;)
nails says, "Yes. That is not appropriate for a family audience."
Adam says, "Oh, now you've done it. Now nails won't let me come to his birthday party."
Ide says, "haha"
Hayleigh protects nails from Adam
Kalina eyes Adam.
Ide says, "So, what I mean is the actual play scene-by-scene of the players -- the poses and says they do for their character. In addition we can include the extra-scene play, such as IC news posted to a bboard, IC notes, etc."
Adam says, "So you mean who decides what ultimately is 'true' in terms of the fiction?"
nails says, "Is the story what ties the characters to the setting/environment?"
Ide says, "you could define story that way nails, but my meaning is the actual play -- the logs of RP, if you will"
Ide says, "Adam, that's right"
Ide says, "Of these concepts, let's somewhat arbtrarily divide them into two groups -- narrative control, and the player character."
Adam says, "So authority over 1) what you say and pose (and power to retcon them), and 2) what you write on the character?"
Feydra says, "And who makes the characters"
Feydra says, "I would think"
Ide says, "Under narrative control I'll put setting/world ownership, scene framing, etc. -- under player character I'll put PC goals, relationship mechanics, abstract resources."
Ide says, "Authority in that sense of the ultimate decider Adam, yes"
Ide says, "just to bring this back to the intro, my premise is that most games that are not totally 'freeform' are using GMs/staff with this authority that we're talking about."
Ide says, "I'd like to introduce a few games now just to serve as points of departure. Some of these games have got a lot of attention in the communities in which they circulate -- I'm going to mention a few. First, Dogs in the Vineyard, and second, Primetime Adventures."
Feydra <3 PTA!
Ide grins
Pain has arrived.
Ide says, "In Dogs in the Vineyard (DitV), players RP characters in a kind of American West that never was -- playing gun-slinging watchguards of a Mormon-like religion."
Ide says, "In Primetime Adventures (PTA) players collaboratively decide what scenes will actually occur, and what the goals of those scenes are."
Pain quietly sneaks in the back door.
Ide says, "Now, from what I just said these games don't sound very different from a typical mush game"
imphuhs. "Does PTA actually have a theme besides that?"
Wine has disconnected.
Ide says, "you decide the theme before you play"
Brazil has arrived.
Ide says, "hi Brazil, welcome"
Brazil quietly finds a seat.
Ide says, "The difference is that these games use explicit systems to decide how scenes occur -- when I say explicit, I mean for example in the sense of in Dungeons and Dragons rolling a number of d6 to decide on the outcome of an event. These games use explicit mechanics to decide things that in mush we might decide purely by a conversation of pages."
Ide says, "I'll mention a few more games quickly -- Spirit of the Century, based on the FATE system (and designed by long-time mushers, btw), and a couple of perhaps lesser-well-known games, Polaris, and Shock:"
Ide says, "I mention that last two, Polaris and Shock:, because they don't use a single GM at the tabletop -- rather, the responsibilities are shared between the players"
Ide says, "Obviously there are issues bringing a concept like that to mush, and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. The advantages of player control of typically GM responsibility should be obvious -- not that there wouldn't be disadvantages as well."
nails says, "They're not obvious to me."
nails hides behind Hayleigh.
Ide says, "nails, the advantage I'm thinking of is that players don't have to wait for staff approval of their ideas"
Ide grins
Jon says, "I think it's a great thing that gives players more of a stake in the story."
Ide says, "and that too"
imp says, "But self-policing is not the same as community-policing, or gm-policing."
Kalina shakes her head. There's no real advantage, considering the fact that such wide-shared control is typically disasterous when you have players that have been there for awhile trying to control the game or the way it's going. (Although I suppose the staff approval thing.)
Jon says, "But I'd be concerned about expanding the idea to more than a few people sitting around a table. Dynamics change when you stop seeing each other face-to-face."
Ide says, "exactly Jon, there are serious scaling issues"
imp says, "if you allow people to control their own requests, it's not the same as doing it table-top. What Jon Said, exactly."
Feydra pats nails. "I think a lot of players don't want to be in control or do the work though. A lot of players a voyers. Though those types of players wouldn't go to a self gming game typically."
Ide says, "another good point Feydra -- not all players are creators"
imp says, "So there has to be community approval based on a set number, an Oligarchy, or a quorom of interested players if we give all players the option."
Ide says, "however, I'd like to propose that many more players could be 'owners'"
Jon flashbacks to Nomic.
Kalina nods. "But also not all players want to have that kind of responsibility."
imp says, "then why are they playing on a game that specifically gives them that responsibility?"
Ide says, "I think this game is somewhat hypothetical at this point -- has anyone tried such an approach?"
Adam says, "I think MUSHes have these policies to prevent player disputes over what is true in the fiction. I see three kinds of solutions: 1) What you freeform, I call 'players work it out.' 2) The players can call staff/GMs to rule. 3) The players can rely on code to 'rule.' Your multiple-GM RPG examples (Polaris, Shock:) rely on procedures -- the equivalent of a MUSH's written and coded policies -- and player negotiation."
Feydra runs a very small Prime Time Adventures game online but it's more like an online table top then a MUSH
Disraeli says, "there are a lot of player driven games, what about Shadowrun Denver? there are GMs/players, but the GMs -are- the players."
Disraeli says, "The staff there are just the ultimate referees, and they drop plot hooks, but you dont have to use them."
nicnivyn has arrived.
Ide says, "that would work well for a game where most players don't want to GM, I think Dis -- is that the case there?"
Jon says, "What do you mean by that, Disraeli? It would seem to me that the GMs are always players too..."
Ide says, "and Shadowrun lends itself very well to GM-control"
Feydra inititally rotated 'producer' duty but it turned out a few people liked to do it and a few people didn't want to do the work so... we naturally ended up with two people alternating and the rest just playing.
Ide nods to Feydra
Disraeli says, "As in, if you decide, hmm, I want to run a shadowrun, then you just go right ahead and GM it with your friends. Then you sub the log and the staff there give you karma for it and a pat on the back. You dont need approval to do it or anything."
Disraeli says, "And the staff dont actually run stuff themselves, the players do it all."
Jon says, "Oh, I see. The GMing comes from the players. Ok."
Disraeli says, "Well, they might occasionally, but 95% of it is the players."
Ide says, "I want to highlight something Adam said as well -- Polaris and Shock: rely on specific procedures -- the explicit system that I'm talking about, and that could potentially be applied to mush games"
Thenomain is interested to hear where Ide is going before making conclusions.
Adam says, "The whole 'GM' thing is a fishy concept anyway. All 'GM' means here is 'player with special authority some of the time.' Any time a wizard plays one of his non-wiz alts, he's a GM and a player. The line isn't so clear, even now."
imp says, "Code-based procedures that avoid bureaucracy are the best and worst option at the same time."
Ide says, "I'll turn the mic over to open discussion after one last comment"
Jon says, "Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others. ;)"
imp says, "Democracy is a dirty word, Jon."
Kalina nods. It is.
imp says, "The American Forefathers never intended for us to stand for a Democracy, It was a dirty word to them too. They stood for a Republic."
imp says, "erm. nevermind."
Jon anyways, listening for Ide's comment. :)
Ide says, "Many of these games rely on a foundation of trust between players. Obviously there are different issues between TT play and mush play. But I would say that this foundation is key to -any- game, not just a game using some of the ideas we talked about. In that respect, we can address problem players as an issue of its own -- indeed, you'd have to do that on any mush. So with that, let's consider further how to apply systems and procedures to fold in these concepts we're talking about."
Ide says, "Unless someone thinks some of these concepts are a -bad- idea in mush, let's hear that too"
Thenomain coughs. "I think we already have."
Ide says, "Perhaps we could start with Adam's last comment, about the role of player and Gm. I think this is pretty fundamental."
Ide grins
Disraeli says, "well, if they are player run its generally a cooperative rather than adversarial thing anyway. You might say they surrender some authority willingly to a storyteller who wants to tell a story which they can participate in, in exchange for being given a good time. (ooer)."
imp says, "The Large a game is, the less the players trust each other."
imp says, "Larger"
Ide says, "What about ownership of the setting. If there are no GMs -- in the sense there are no ultimate authority GMs -- what systems can you use?"
Ide says, "I think that describes a relationship rather than a fact, imp"
Adam says, "I think imp has something there, but I think for the wrong reasons. It's not because a game is larger. It's because on a larger game, you're less likely to know everyone intimately."
imp says, "It was a broad generalization, essentially based on what Adam has responded with."
Ide says, "Is the solution to have procedures that bring more players together? Or procedues that define how interactions between strangers occur?"
Dr. Tran has connected.
Ide nods to imp, I agree with it in that sense
Sponge asks Ide, "Why either?"
imp says, "Bring more players together how?"
Adam says, "I think MUSH staff have the monopoly on the setting-in-the-large because they have the tools to /record/ it. Give players tools -- like a wiki -- to record their own setting stuff, and you decentralize that power and let them share what they invent with others. Right now, though, the basic tools on a MUSH are not conducive to player-shared setting."
Mark says, "Agreed, it can be truly free form. That has serious downsides on many fronts."
Dr. Tran listens in, having almost missed everything.
Torianos says, "I've seen truly free-form games and they tend to lack stability because there's no continuity. The lack of continuity tends to drive people away in my experience."
imp says, "I used to run WOD games on AOL a long time ago. Monstrously large ones that were based on Documents and and nothing more than the D20 system that AOL chat rooms provided. The crux of these games always ended up being a small number of players handling administrative activities and gigantic plot points. Everything else was run by the players out of necessity."
Ide says, "imp, Sponge, the idea being that player trust facilitates collaborative/less GM-oriented play, which has its advantages"
imp says, "This may be a strange addition to the conversation, but I want to admit it because of a particular effect that was created."
Dr. Tran says, "I'll disagree on that point, if I may. I've had six years of adminning on a free-form game and it kept continuity very well."
Ide says, "How so, Tran?"
Disraeli says, "enh. player trust isnt much of an issue on a player driven game, because you play with your friends."
Mark says, "I've seen it go the other direction more often than naught."
Disraeli says, "who are you going to distrust? your friends? presumably not. you just self select who play with."
imp says, "People trusted me and the other administrators to know and observe and "trial" the incoming players to ensure that they would be clean additions to the game. they also trusted us to dispose of players who violated the democratic continuity of the game."
Ide says, "Dis, what if you want a bigger player base? (and not enough friends ;)"
Disraeli says, "its not like you are forced on a freeform or player driven game into a situation you dont want."
Disraeli says, "Shadowrun Denver was and is the biggest Shadowrun MUSH out there, I think?"
Dr. Tran says, "It may have been due to the size of the playerbase. At most we had 40 players, with anywhere from 1 to 12 characters per player. We allowed the players to run their own storylines, and just added plot points every so often. We kept track of what was going on, because we were rarely out of character. And around every 2 years, we ran an 'end of the world' plot, and reset everything."
Sketch_Fox says, "What game/major theme was this, Tran?"
nails says, "Mm. Now with 20% more Armageddon."
Dr. Tran says, "Sonic the Hedgehog on ChaosMUCK."
Ide says, "Tran, how did you keep track and keep the players updated?"
Dr. Tran says, "Word of mouth."
Mark nods, "Small player bases are self focusing. It doesn't translate upward to a large game."
Dr. Tran says, "Both IC and OOC."
Sponge says, "Scaling well is only important if your objective is a large game."
Torianos says, "I have less experience with it but I'd expect that as the playerbase grew you'd have more self-contained groups with different ideas of how it all should progress."
Adam says, "I think 'freeform' games tend to gain a form over time anyway. The conventions and habits of popular players become institutionalized. Old players expect new players to learn the local 'rules' about pose order, pose length, ICA=ICC, and so on. If freeform were so wonderful, we wouldn't spend money on tabletop games. In short, System Does Matter and players LIKE System and for the sake of consistency they'll codify their agreed-upon habits into a de facto system anyway."
Ide dropped MUSH and new RPGs.
Mark says, "Agreed. I love small games. They are more prone to rapid arrival and departure."
Dr. Tran says, "We had two factions, good and bad, broken down into smaller cells. The goal was for one side to overthrow the other. We worked towards that goal, and every so often, players would arrange for a large group scene."
imp says, "You have to set ultimate limits, don't you?"
Ide says, "at this point I also want to make references on that MUSH object available."
Ide says, "just look at the description -- the article Adam mentioned is there ('System Does..')"
Dr. Tran hasn't spent any money on tabletop games. Never owned one. :)
Torianos nods to what Adam says. "People gravitate towards a system of -some- sort. It can be very hands-off and almost free-form, but generally I think people want at least some set of rules."
Sponge looks to Adam, "I think what you describe is an absolute with respect to freeform. There's freeform in system and just free in governance."
Dr. Tran nods.
Jon says, "Anarchy is a form of government."
imp says, "sort of."
Ide says, "anarchy merely is anti-authoritarian ;)"
Mark grins, "Just not very stable."
Dr. Tran says, "The only thing we did was make sure the best players got the two leader characters."
nails says, "the structured organized discussion on Anarchy is next week."
Sketch_Fox briefly lapses into thought on his wikitheme-MUSH.. :p Just >this< close to having random theme.. :)
Disraeli says, "Cool. I'll be here next week for sure. :p"
imp says, "Anarchy is state-lessness."
Dr. Tran says, "And by best, I mean the ones with the most OOC and IC leadership skills, good roleplaying skills, and time to devote to the role."
Adam says, "I'm saying that you're /never/ devoid of system. You're just leaving it up to the players to make up if you go 'freeform.'"
Dr. Tran nods.
Torianos nods as well.
nails says, "So, there are shades of gray."
Ide says, "and part of what this talk is about is the question, are we better off choosing a 'system' from the get-go, where all the parts presumably work well together?"
Sponge says, "I agree with Adam. Eventually your system will have some kind of system or mode if it starts with none and will eventually become a meritocracy."
Ide says, "Sponge, the second half of your comment is nice, but how many meritocratic mushes have you seen?"
Adam says, "Where 'merit' is highly influenced by social factors, not always utilitarian factors."
Mark says, "Or dissolve into a pool of nothing if you don't get leaders or provide leadership."
nails says, "So, say it turns into that."
Ide will accept Adam's definition of 'merit' ;)
Sketch_Fox says, "Ide: 2."
Disraeli says, "Enh, I think you're too locked up in hierarchy really, 'meritocracy'?"
nails says, "Is that indistinguishable from the other version put forth? The GM-lead, game-system-based format?"
Disraeli says, "the point isnt whether theres a hierarchy at all, merely to have fun, as individuals."
Torianos says, "In the TT or pen/paper games I've played, even ones that my friends and I have made up ourselves, it usually comes down to the same thing doesn't it? The founding group just making a decisions"
Sponge says, "Of course. Merit is subjective (Artistic Merit, anyone?) and defined by the participants."
Torianos says, "In the TT or pen/paper games I've played, even ones that my friends and I have made up ourselves, it usually comes down to the same thing doesn't it? The founding group just making decisions based on what they like? (smacks his keyboard)"
imp says, "Or merit is defined by laziness."
Disraeli is sure there is, the ones who GM more in a player led game will get more XP, but really, its an irrelevance.
Adam says, "So, say I invite half of you all over to my house to play a fantasy game. You show up and I tell you that there are no rules. We'll play 'freeform.' The next week, I invite the other half of you over to play a fantasy game and I tell you that we'll use a playtested fantasy RPG called The Shadow of Yesterday. Which is more likely to provide fun consistently?"
imp says, "Proactivity."
Dr. Tran says, "That depends on the group of people you invite."
Ide says, "I'd have to say TSoY, Adam"
Mark agrees
Dr. Tran says, "Some people make freeform work. Some don't."
Sketch_Fox agrees with Tran.
Ide says, "and disagree with Tran ;)"
Disraeli says, "cept it aint like that, Adam, its more like we get together in a big house, and someone decides what to do"
Disraeli says, "One week I GM, next week you do"
nails waits on the statistics. :)
Disraeli says, "Which... is kinda how I play TT IRL I guess, we swap the GM duties. :p"
Adam says, "When you connect to a MUSH, it isn't different every week..."
Sketch_Fox says, "I believe that a freeform D&D-like would be hilariously fun."
Disraeli says, "No, the MUSH provides the basic framework, ie we are playing SHadowrun, we have this +sheet code, you get X karma points per run"
Feydra says, "Adam's got a good point. That's one of the reasons people like to RP they know what to expect"
Mark says, "When I connect to a MUSH, I epect some reasonable level of foundation."
Disraeli says, "But I might have a different GM and a totally different style of run from one week to the next."
Muse says, "That can depend on how fast you turn over staff. ;)"
nails says, "Actually, I played a freeform D&D-like game once."
Ide says, "Here's the thing, though -- a mush is precisely the combination of Adam's and Dis's comments. Different players logging in at different times, and deciding what to do."
Disraeli says, "Course, it'll be Shadowrun at the end of the day, but I'll find some buddies and end up playing with them."
Sketch_Fox says, "Nails: How'd it go?"
nails says, "What ended up happening I cannot detail in this family-friendly environment."
Sketch_Fox cackles.
Disraeli laughs at nails
Dr. Tran says, "I find that what makes freeform work is plausibility. If you all understand the details of theme you're playing in, and agree to do things that are plausible for your character within that theme, and use some consent/common courtesy, it works."
Kalina shakes her head.
Mark says, "That, again, works in a small group, Dr."
nails says, "There was a half-orc with a libido."
Dr. Tran says, "Oh god."
nails says, "Lets just say that he was 'attacking the darkness'."
Kalina ....o.0
Ide laughs
Dr. Tran facepalms. XD
Sketch_Fox cackles.
Adam says, "I'm not saying people can't have fun playing freeform. People do it all the time. But I feel that it doesn't /consistently/ bring the fun. And you can't tune it so that it does, because there's nothing to tune."
Kalina hides behind Adam now.
Dr. Tran says, "I dunno. We had fun daily for hours."
Mark nods to Adam.
Dr. Tran says, "I guess we hit a lucky group. :)"
Torianos says, "A setting or theme where certain actions are either plausible or not. The free-form aspect comes in because the players know what fits in the game's setting and what doesn't."
Adam says, "Sure, Tran. But what if it wasn't fun? How would you have fixed it? As soon as you start fixing, you're messing with system. You're in game design then, and no longer in the realm of freeform."
Dr. Tran says, "That, and this is a whoooole other ball of wax for me. I started out on MUCKs, which tend to attract a different crowd of people than MUSHes do."
nails says, "Of course, I don't think having a game system actually guarantees a consistant experience."
Feydra nods to Tori I've played in games like that
Dr. Tran says, "If it weren't fun, I'd just ask people what they wanted to do, and go roleplay ther."
Dr. Tran er, that.
Dr. Tran says, "That's what we did. :)"
Disraeli says, "Enh. That sounds like an anarchist theorist debating if you got a pure anarchy or not. No points for being 'pure freeform', thats not the goal, having fun is the goal."
Dr. Tran nods!
Mark says, "Which is great for small groups/small games."
Dr. Tran says, "So are we discussing successful design for large-scale games, or small?"
Dr. Tran is coming in late, so if he's off-subject, pardon please.
Adam says, "But if we're allowing for this hybrid impure 'freeform' thing, we're talking about players showing up and doing game design. If that's what we're really discussing, let's make that clear."
Ide says, "I think we want to consider both, but just for the hell of it let's focus on large-scale"
Mark says, "I have no idea. I'm just tossing counterpoint."
Jon says, "But can that work for a game with a consistent theme? Or does freeform imply not having that?"
Disraeli thinks your being caught up on semantics.
Adam says, "Who?"
Disraeli says, "You. :p"
Ide grins
Kalina facepalms.
nails says, "System or freeform aside, if competant players and GMs in charge, there will be some structure and there will be some flexibility. Even if there's no rulebook, I think there are options for tuning. It's probably more about the aforementioned trust issues, and good communication."
Dr. Tran nods.
Disraeli says, "Ultimately, tiz a game. I dont think it matters too much which words are used to describe it. I'm sure even a 'freeform' game has structure. Course it does."
Adam says, "I don't think so, Disraeli. I think there's a vast (not semantic) difference between just working it out freeform and unintentionally doing game design while playing."
Feydra says, "Jon I've played on games with consistant theme but no stats, no character sheets, no GMs (though they did have admin to deal with the code and foo)"
Disraeli says, "if nothing else, someone made that game, after all."
Dr. Tran says, "This reminds me of the LemonMUCK/InstantMUCK experiment."
Disraeli says, "Someone can pull the plug ultimately, too. :p"
Sponge says, "Freeform is like anarchy. You've got two kinds: ideal and realistic. In the ideal version of each everyone agrees ahead of time on the system and already has something in mind. We all just happen to work together. In the realistic version of both, not everyone goes into it with the same idea and so it doesn't function (ideally). Freeform games and anarchistic utopias sometimes succeed because everyone already agrees on how things hshould be done. There's no written system, but there's an implied one."
Sketch_Fox says, "Tell me more about that, Dr. Tran? Please?"
Sketch_Fox says, "Although.. LemonMUCK sounds... er... Lemony. :)"
Adam says, "Can ideal anarchists agree that the system is Democracy? ;)"
Jon says, "Maybe I'm not understanding 'freeform' here, but if I'm in a scene with 4 of my friends, and then I leave and go to a scene with 5 people, can I still consistently be in character? Wouldn't it be more likely that my character development makes no sense in the new system? (If by freeform we're referring to a set of systems that are decided upon for each scene and then thrown away)."
Mark says, "Think freeform with 5-7 people you have never met in a room."
Dr. Tran says, "Sure. Back in the late 90's, two games were stared by the same admin. Instant MUCK was one wizard that installed code and handled harassment issues you mailed to it. Aside from that, you made what you wanted, you built what you wanted, you played what you wanted. Entirely player made. Lemon MUCK was set up as having a definite theme, with lots of staff guiding and interacting, and restrictions."
Sketch_Fox says, "I've done it. Fun."
Ide says, "Jon, I think what people here are saying is that even on a 'freeform' mush, set of principles -- a 'system' for play -- eventually reifies and everyone uses that or is taught that"
Dr. Tran says, "Instant MUCK hit the 100's in connect rates, and lasted for years, until the admins messed with it."
Dr. Tran says, "Lemon MUCK folded inside of 9 months."
Adam says, "I think, ultimately, we're talking about How Facts are Established in the Fiction. There's always a system. In freeform, that system is ad hoc and often not even the same in everyone's heads, though they may think it is."
Disraeli points out, I dont think freeform necessarily means no theme, which is being conflated here. the mutable theme bit was Ide's new whiz idea, right?
Disraeli dunnos what Doc Tran's place is like
Sketch_Fox says, "Interesting... highly interesting."
Ide nods to Dis, though I think the mutable theme came from Sponge's wikitheme idea
Dr. Tran says, "I'm currently trying a similar experiment with two games."
Mark says, "But if the players are in charge, I can deviate the theme in a freeform environment...only if it is only a minor change."
Adam says, "But there are a billion ways you can apportion that authority. You can make rules like 'the player who has been on the game longest gets to make final decisions in scenes.'"
Sponge doesn't recall having stated any kind of wikietheme thingiemajig
Disraeli says, "enh, I dunno. You're getting hung up on authority again. I got a good anecdote here from Shadowrun Denver"
Ide says, "One thing we haven't talked about is the player character specifically -- the systems we can use to give PCs the authority to 'do stuff'"
Adam mentioned the wiki setting thingy earlier.
Disraeli says, "Shadowrun is in essence a schizophrenic game, as it is. Some people dig the fantasy aspect, some people hate it."
Ide says, "sorry Sponge, I'll have to read the back scroll to attribute that correctly"
Adam says, "Ide, that's just a special case of 'How Facts are Established in the Fiction.'"
Disraeli says, "And then you have all these people logging into one server and having to coexist."
Dr. Tran says, "My current game, Disraeli, is 'players can change the theme'."
Jon says, "What I'm saying... and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding... is let's say we have a concrete theme of a superhero MUSH. I get into one scene where I can barely land a punch because the people I'm playing with have decided to micromanage combat. Then I go to a system where I just pose 'beats the crap of everyone'. How can a game stay consistent with itself?"
Disraeli says, "With different ideas of what the theme is/should be."
Sketch_Fox says, "Tran: Oh?! How's it going? Where is it? :D"
Dr. Tran says, "The second one which is still in the works, is a set theme with coded combat, factions, etc."
Disraeli says, "what happened is, the guys who liked cyberpunk ended up playing with the cyberpunkers, and the guys who liked fantasy ended up playing with all the mages, and broadly speaking everybody's happy."
Dr. Tran nods.
Adam says, "Tran, do you mean it's 'players can do things that the staff interprets and the staff uses to change the theme?'"
nails says, "There seems to be a lot of confusion here."
Jon grins. "That's what my first MUSH experiment was. MishMUSH."
Ide says, "nails, confusion how?"
Dr. Tran says, "All I did was create a basic story idea, and let people play whatever. They can take the story and game in any direction they want after that."
Dr. Tran says, "Unfortunately I am running into the same-old-same-old problem: Unless I hand people RP, no one does anything."
Adam says, "But how do they resolve things like combats?"
Mark chuckles, "This entire conversation demonstrates the anarchy of freeform applications. Everyone has a different take."
Dr. Tran says, "Consent."
Sketch_Fox says, "Is that MUSH-related, Tran?"
nails says, "I just get the sense that people are debating arguments that don't actually line up with each other."
Dr. Tran says, "Yes."
Sponge ducks out, not having anything to really contribute.
Sponge goes home.
Sponge has left.
Adam says, "I want my PC to kill your PC. You knowingly walked into my lockable water chamber and now I'm filling it with pool water. How is it you don't die?"
Disraeli snickers at Dr Trans problem.
Feydra nods. "Tran that's my experience too. Most players want to play they don't want to GM."
Mark says, "The discussion did seem to get sidetracked"
nails says, "How about this."
Adam is probably doing a lot of sidetracking. I should stop.
Dr. Tran pages Adam an answer. XD
nails says, "Can everybody give a brief description of what they think of when they hear 'freeform'."
nails says, "just so we can see the different opinions out there."
Jon says, "In my experience with consent-based, Adam, because the more interesting story is for your PC not to die, but to come away with a life-changing experience."
Ide will answer nails.
Dr. Tran says, "I'm quite willing to let mine die."
Ide says, "And actually I have two answers. Originally I thought that freeform meant no rules, no mechanics, possibly no theme."
Jon says, "Before this discussion, my idea of freeform was consent-based in a consistent system. Basically, if my guy's obviously stronger than yours, I expect to be able to kill you in a pure brawl. But if you're more cunning, you can find a way to beat me. And everyone's satisfied because it's consistent with their strict sheet."
Jon says, "Now I'm confused. :)"
Dr. Tran's been using Jon's method.
Adam says, "Freeform: A game system that isn't written down anywhere, so the players have to mutually discover it (or, really, /design it/) through negotiation and discussion."
Ide says, "At this point my thought (not original of course) is that freeform is what players call a 'homebrew' system that has evolved over time. It still is a system with social 'rules'. And maybe some specific mechanics as well."
Mark says, "Freeform, in what I've seen, is that I can fundamentally change the game's focus including them. There is no oversight that stops me from doing so. Free RP, on the other hand, is where I must confine myself to a delegated theme and limited set of boundaries without a system in place."
Disraeli says, "freeform: RP without use of any rules or mechanics to resolve conflicts. Which may be used in the context of a non freeform environment, as in, people dont always break out the dice to resolve things, often, even in a game with a system, they will talk it out."
Feydra brings back around to Primetime Adventures (great system everyone should buy the PDF today), in PTA the players essentially negotiate the scene before it happens, set a goal and work together to accomplish it. So while there's no mechanics to decide if you can punch thug A, it becomes instead, what is best for the ultimate goals of this story.
Dr. Tran says, "Yeah."
Dr. Tran says, "That's essentially what we'd do."
nails says, "I have always thought that 'freeform' meant limited reliance on coded systems, little or no stats structure. Usually that is replaced with background and descriptions of a character's role and ability. It also meant that conflict resolution is handled less by stats and more by discussion (between different players or between players and staff). ie, a different type of structure, not a lack of structure."
Jon says, "So the finale is decided beforehand and you fill in the rest?"
Sketch_Fox says, "I'm with nails. ... Sorry. *just raises his hand to vote* :P"
Ide says, "Feydra, in PTA how are small details that come up on the fly during the scene handled -- player consent? Consensus?"
Dr. Tran is beginning to think we had a very different way of doing things on CM. o_o
Feydra says, "In a sense yes Jon.. and when we play we use consensus generally"
Feydra says, "if there's a problem but the biggest rule in the game is 'suport your other players' so usually you take the balls they throw and run with them."
Adam says, "My problem with the type of freeform that nails is discussing is that it doesn't answer the question, 'Who has authority?' for any situation at all. In fact, I suspect it says 'No one has authority.' And if it's a consent-based game, then the MUSH has imposed one rule: 'No one has authority to do anything unless everyone involved agrees with it.'"
nails says, "The kind of freeform that I've seen doesn't actually minimize the role of staff, it just changes the mechanics. They are usually still in charge."
Adam says, "In charge of what, nails?"
nails says, "Conflict resolution."
Adam says, "As final arbiters, you mean?"
nails nods.
Dr. Tran nods.
nails says, "That itself varies by degrees."
Adam says, "So how's that different than a GMed game, except as a matter of degree?"
Adam says, "You can consent and work things out without a GM on a GMed game, too."
nails says, "Like I said, that's not the aspect that differs when a game is 'freeform'. It's not a lack of GMing."
Mark says, "When they are in charge of that situation, they have no authority because they have no basis for making a decision."
nails says, "It's a lack of coded stats."
Jon says, "I think, to bring it back to GMless TT games a little, that part of the problem is that on a MUSH you don't see what other people have going on."
Mark says, "If the game has enforced limitations, that might work."
Jon says, "In a tabletop, you're aware of what the rest of the players want to do."
Adam thinks the 'coded stats' thing is a red herring. You have /some aspects/ that define your character and limit what you can and cannot
Adam hit Enter too early. One sec.
Adam thinks the 'coded stats' thing is a red herring. You have /some aspects/ that define your character and 'determine' what you can and cannot do. It might be your desc or your back history or your self-concept of personality.
nails says, "Again, I'm going on what I've seen when people create what they refer to as a 'freeform' game. In most cases I've seen the term used, it refers to the level of coded systems, not the level of GM oversite."
Disraeli nods at nails
nails says, "oversight, even. :)"
Ide agrees.
Adam says, "Ide, was that the way you were using Freeform in your talk?"
Mark says, "I think we can all agree to disagree on the freeform definition. What's next Ide?"
nails says, "So the assumption that freeform = no GM isn't something I've seen in the games I've seen it on."
Ide says, "Adam -- I would say no."
Mel raises her hand, "In GMless games, **code was minimal, and bg was nice** what I have seen is that players decide what gets played by virtue of who they play /with/. You can have the most wonderful idea for a storyline but if your play drives other players away...it will not happen.
Dr. Tran nods.
nails says, "I think there /may/ be a correlation that GMless games /tend/ to not be stats/code heavy."
Ide says, "excellent point Mel"
nails says, "But this is a rectangle/square thing."
nails says, "Correlation does not imply causation :)"
Ide says, "Mark, one thing we haven't talked about is different ways of defining a PC -- goals, relations, abstract resources such as luck/karma/fate points, meta-resources or meta-goals, etc."
Ide says, "There has been some talk at Electric Soup lately about luck points. What about goals, relations between PCs (i.e. stuff you'd see on a roster system, but not necessarily using a roster system), -player- as opposed to character goals, etc.?"
Dr. Tran listens.
Mark says, "So how a character is fundamentally defined in one fashion or the other. Be it stats or not."
Adam says, "What? Everyone knows that a character consists of attributes like Strength and Intelligence, some skills, their race and gender, maybe a class and level combination if you like that kind of thing, plus some way to measure survivability (hit points or shock resistance or something), plus equipment. Right? (*sarcasm*)"
Ide laughs
Thenomain has disconnected.
Feydra thinks it's very important to distinquish between player and character goals. A lot of players get confuzzled there.
Ide says, "isn't PTA a good example of player vs. character goals?"
Disraeli says, "..hows luck points got anything to do with goals? out of curiosity?"
Feydra nods. Until I played PTA I didn't really distinquish them
Ide says, "Dis, I didn't mean to associate the two, just present them in a list"
Mark says, "Usually, when I make a character, the player goals are gone. Perhaps it is just me. I want to assume the role of the person I'm creating."
Feydra says, "Infact PTA totally changed my approach to RP, to setting scenes and accompishing them. Most games, particularly mushes you can sort of have the scene that never ends and there is no 'goal' to a scene it's social RP to fill time."
Mark says, "If the player foo gets involved, I end working for the game and that pretty much ends the fun aspect."
Feydra says, "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Ide says, "yes Mark, this is important"
Adam says, "I find that players think that it's some kind of God-given rule that you must ignore player goals over character goals. I find that the best stories are written when the player keeps an eye on player goals."
Ide says, "People here might be familiar with how others have attempted to classify the 'types' of RP practice that people enjoy"
Dr. Tran says, "That must have been fun."
Jon says, "Is TS on the list?"
Ide says, "player vs. character goals is a good example that expresses this idea of classifying types of RP"
Hayleigh perks and then looks guilty.
Ide laughs
Mark says, "Oh, when I create characters, I have a devilish insight into how the I will play him and work the character to my end goals. That doesn't mean that my personal goals are at work during play"
Ide says, "Jon, that's not what people here are talking about, exactly ;)"
Feydra nods. Adam in PTA often when you're plotting out scenes (or when I am), you will say things like My char's goal is X and Y but my goal for my character is Z
Ide says, "Mark -- they're not?"
Ide says, "I'm not saying they're not, but asking you to explain what you mean more fully"
Mark says, "In no way."
Dr. Tran says, "I tend to do that too, Mark."
Adam nods to Feydra, "My character Bob /really/ doesn't want to get knocked out by this bully, but wouldn't it really make a /fantastic story/? I think I'll let him get knocked out!" I suspect that consent-based players do this thing /all the time/.
Dr. Tran says, "It's kind of like, mentally, putting on a suit of that character, and constantly thinking, What Would Character ____ Do?"
Ide says, "as an aside to Jon, when I say 'people' I mean people who make these classifications of RP practice"
Feydra says, "You don't ever torture your characters? Like throw them into things you know will be diffecult for them to cope with cause you want them to be challenged? nothing like that?"
Feydra nods Adam that's exactly it.
Dr. Tran laughs.
Jongrins. I'm just side-quipping. Ignore me.
Mark says, "During generation, I find the persona that I want to assume. Usually, they are aspects I don't even like. Then I refine how I can mold it into someone not me."
Dr. Tran says, "My friends accuse me of making woobies out of mine."
Adam needs to idle. "It's been fun!"
Ide says, "thanks for coming Adam"
Feydra says, "And Adam that's what my experience in consent based games has been like too. Most people I've played with are more intrested in building a story than 'winning' cause there is no 'winning'"
Jon says, "Doesn't that imply a player goal of 'I want to play out a character who I don't identify with and see where I can find understanding?""
Ide says, "let's try to wrap this up in 15 minutes, so if anyone has final grand statements, prepare them now ;)"
Dr. Tran has missed everything noooo
Ide laughs
Feydra thinks everyone should read Primetime!
Mark says, "Most of my characters are tortured by nature. They all have significant flaws hidden or coded."
Dr. Tran thumbs-up to Mark.
Jon says, "Along the same lines, I'll sometimes make a character with the player goal of, "I want to see what would happen to someone like me in this unfamiliar situation"."
Ide says, "Mark, you mention your process of deciding on a persona to play. Now what has been your experience going into a new mush, where you know maybe a few players, and there are many other PCs in the game. Do you feel like you need some immediate connection, perhaps defined by the character generation system -- like instant relations?"
Ide says, "Feydra, I'm planning to get it as soon as I read all these other games I have :)"
Feydra plays my characters as they should be played but... I think I put my writer hat on too. I think... this is what's going on in my char's head, but I also think, what would be best for this character/chapter/story even if they don't nessesarly want it icly.
Mark says, "Frankly, I don't visit many games where I do not know anyone else. So there is bias. Lately, I go into games with the player goal of character death. I'm largely unsuccessful."
Jon says, "I mean, at the basest level, when designing any character for yourself your player goal is, 'This is what I want to experience'."
Dr. Tran says, "Really, Mark?"
Ide laughs
Dr. Tran says, "Interesting."
Mark nods to Jon, "Absolutely."
Mark nods to Tran
Dr. Tran says, "The only people I can't kill off are FCs. :)"
Mark says, "People on many games are fundamentally against any character death."
Jon says, "Because nobody plays an RPG to torture themselves RL."
Jon says, "Well, nobody I know."
Feydra says, "Ide, as far as chargen, while I hated it at first like HATED it, I <3 roster systems now... I think I RP more like acting now when I used to feel I needed to control everything about my RP now I'm like oh that looks neat let's try it."
Dr. Tran says, "Not me!"
Dr. Tran says, "Jon, I've played characters that have tugged my heartstrings enough to make me actually briefly sad and miserable."
Mark says, "I think much of it comes because you interact and RP and the loss of that RP at some level equates to the Player leaving vs. the character dying."
Jon nods to Feydra. "Even when I'm writing my own character, I still chargen it fully as if he'll be played by someone else."
Dr. Tran nods.
Hayleigh raises her hand and hops up and down, "I have a question"
Ide says, "Jon, do you mean writing a lot of background and stuff like that?"
Ide says, "go for it Hayleigh ;)"
Feydra nods to Jon, "Firan's taught me to keep my character sheet up to date and be throughal."
Hayleigh says, "This might sound odd, but what is PTA?"
Ide says, "sorry, Primetime Adventures, a RPG originally for tabletop"
Ide says, "I'll get the link, one sec"
Feydra says, "And Tran I have played characters that made me cry more than once but that's because those were emotional places I wanted to explore."
Dr. Tran says, "You know, it wasn't until I got on a MUSH that I even /heard/ about people doing sheets and stats and coded combat."
Disraeli says, "nobody plays an RPG to torture themselves IRL? pff!"
Jon says, "I mean fleshing it out completely. I discover things about my character during chargen. (Which also happened to me in a tabletop recently, when I spent the entire time writing a character and then ran out of time to play and was still like, "THIS IS AWESOME.""
Dr. Tran says, "Define torture."
Torianos says, "I have friends who do that."
Disraeli knows people who live to RP misery!
Dr. Tran says, "It's fun."
Ide says, "PTA: http://www.dog-eared-designs.com/games.html"
Feydra says, "Angstploitation!"
Sketch_Fox knows people who love to RP *, where '*' is a wildcard match.
Hayleigh nods, "I have played chracters that I have cried over IRL. I always feel a bit silly at the time, but its because you get an attachment because you might not want to go there, but your character would. Like that Feydra? Or something you want to explore IRL and feel safe doing it in RP?"
Mark says, "I find it more pleasing to get in public and revise the character (downgrade wise), to not match the norm."
Ide says, "Tran, when you say 'it wasn't until', was that coming from a tabletop RPG background?"
Dr. Tran says, "I kind of look like gaming emotional experiences like flavors. If it's always 'sweet' or always 'salty', it's boring. You need some sour and spicy and bitter in there too."
Dr. Tran says, "Nope."
Dr. Tran says, "I started on social MUCKs."
Dr. Tran says, "Back in 95."
Jon says, "Exactly, Mark."
Dr. Tran says, "Furtoonia, too be exact."
Dr. Tran says, "I debated between Dune II MUSH and Furtoonia."
Jon says, "It's like being on stage. You don't always want to play the comic relief."
Ide says, "Since we're talking about player/character separation here, what do you guys think about using 'meta-' resources to influence the game -- things the player controls, but not the character"
nails says, "Lots of people play different things different ways for different reasons."
nails says, "There are no absolutes."
Ide says, "you could call them abstract resources as well"
Sketch_Fox cackles.
Dr. Tran says, "Dune II's application scared me off, because I was so afraid that I would not get it right and embarass myself and the people on the game with my inexperience that I didn't app."
nails says, "x + y does not always equal the same thing."
Hayleigh is the absolute most perfect.
Mark nods to Jon, "If everyone on the game is super at X, I want to do Y, even if it is mundane."
Dr. Tran says, "Yes!"
Feydra says, "Both Hayleigh. Sometimes I just want to know how something feels you know? I get really attached to my chars too... even though I manage to get them killed a fair bit."
Jon says, "I'm fine with using metaknowledge to get characters to a point where I don't know what will happen."
Dr. Tran says, "I tend to pick the underdone/unappreciated roles too."
Dr. Tran says, "I like to fill a niche that rounds out the story for everyone."
Mel waves goodby! she has to idle.
Dr. Tran waves.
Ide says, "bye Mel, thanks for coming"
Jon says, "I mean, each time you log in and go into a room posing that you're pissed off, there doesn't need to be an RP'd reason for it. It creates a hook."
Mel has disconnected.
Torianos does the same as Mel. Laters.
Feydra has to idle but it was fun! I'll get Adam to tell me when the next discussion is!
Disraeli says, "isnt XPan abstract resource right away? least, the way most places do it."
Torianos has disconnected.
Jon says, "Especially if you know it's a happening party you're going to be pissed at."
Ide says, "what if players got some kind of system points that allow them to decide whether there's a gun in the drawer of the desk in the room? Without consent of other players?"
Jon says, "Story-lead points?"
Ide nods to Jon
Ide says, "Dis, do you think of XP as for players or characters, or a little of both?"
Ide says, "XP primarily improves characters, in most games, right?"
Mark says, "Usually."
Jon says, "I don't know if anyone else here has tried Verge (Adam's game) which was my introduction to shared GM games. I imagine it's heavily influenced by other games but I don't know them."
Ide hasn't tried it.
Jon says, "There's a concept I love in it wherein you can 'win' the scene but lose story rights. Or vice-versa."
Mark says, "I waffle on the luck/story points side."
Sketch_Fox says, "iWaffle."
Dr. Tran says, "My only major experience with MUSHes are Mega Man MUSH, Multiverse Crisis, Videoland, and these handful of resource/social games like M*U*S*H."
Sketch_Fox says, "Waffles for YOU. (Waffles you can listen to OUTSIDE.)"
Ide says, "breakfast is now so web 2.0"
Ide says, "Mark, what's a disadvantage of these points?"
Mark says, "I'd rather be in the story and have Jon pull a gun from a desk drawer because it is right....not because he can due to some points jargon."
Dr. Tran says, "Yes!"
Ide says, "what if Jon won those points for, as he mentioned, giving in to another player in an earlier scene?"
Mark says, "Either way, I get shot but there isn't a baffling discontinuity"
Dr. Tran says, "Mark, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter."
Muse tried story-lead points, but they were called Plot Points. There were no GMs but the players and players could spend points to make things happen. It worked because the players communicated with each other and trusted each other.
Jon says, "Yes, but what defines 'right'?"
nails says, "Oh, since I have witnesses here."
Disraeli mms. mainly for the players, to be honest, Ide.
nails says, "I have an announcement to make."
Dr. Tran says, "You"
Dr. Tran ack.
imp says, "uhoh."
Kalina uhohs.
Dr. Tran says, "You're pregnant, and I'm the father?"
nails says, "I am adopting Sketch_Fox."
Dr. Tran says, "Close!"
Hayleigh says, "Are you telling them that we are getting married?"
Kalina hahs.,
Ide says, "Dis, expand on XP for players?"
Dr. Tran hee hee.
imp says, "any disputants?"
Sketch_Fox chibifies and jumps into nails' arms. :D
nails sweatdrop
Ide grins
Mark says, "I don't know what right is or isn't. Its the flow that matters."
Hayleigh eyes nails.
imp says, "3 Story-Lead Points to Nails for taking on the Everlasting Burden."
Hayleigh says, "Mmmmhmmmm"
Hayleigh says, "No capital on the n"
Sketch_Fox cackles.
Jon says, "But if we get to a branch point where two things are equally right, and I want one and you want the other, what do you do?"
nails says, "C'mon, Hayleigh, you know it's the right thing to do."
imp says, "there's a capital because I'm yelling his name."
nails says, "No."
Mark says, "I likely die."
Dr. Tran says, "Seriously, Mark, where do you roleplay, because I miss that."
nails says, "Yelling is: nAILS!!"
Ide says, "Jon, you can give in, or go with some conflict resolution (dice rolling?)"
Mark says, "Hell nails!"
Dr. Tran says, "I miss living by my wits ICly."
Mark doesn't RP anymore.
Dr. Tran :(
imp says, "I a zillion story-lead points, so I can change nails's name if I want to."
Hayleigh toetaps at nails
nails says, "I used to play D&D, but I quit when that whole '2nd Ed' crap came out."
Hayleigh says, "You are not announcing marrying me though?"
Ide notes the time -- unless Disraeli has a final word on XP, we'll wrap this up
nails says, "No"
Hayleigh mmmhmmms
nails says, "I'm saving that. I don't want it to have its thunder stolen by any other announcements."
Mark says, "I find it too convuluted to do so anymore online"
Dr. Tran :(
Dr. Tran says, "I have /no one/ to play with in RL."
Dr. Tran says, "So this is it for me."
Mark says, "In the earlier example, if Jon was in his own office, it makes sense."
nails says, "I'll play with you RL, Dr. Tran."
nails rolls up a half-orc.
Dr. Tran says, "Sure, drive down."
Ide smiles,
nails heh heh heh.
Dr. Tran says, "I'll lock the kids in the closet."
Mark says, "If it was an accountants office, I doubt the number cruncher had the gun."
Dr. Tran says, "and send the husband out for the night."
imp says, "Jon doesn't have an office or drawers, I don't think. and the state won't allow him to buy a gun."
Dr. Tran snickers.
Ide says, "OK, people, to wind this down, thanks everyone for coming to another MPUG Talk Night!"
Sketch_Fox says, "Thanks for hosting! :)"
Dr. Tran says, "Indeed. :D"
Ide says, "we'll get a log up soon (-cleaned up-, that is;)"
Dr. Tran says, "I want mooooar."
Mark says, "Good work Ide"
nails says, "Hear hear!"
nails says, "Punch and pie in the lobby."
Ide cheers.
Hayleigh snugs and poofs
exoteris poofs the log.
Ide says, "I'm going to idle, but will keep logging"