exoteris starts loggin. nails says, "So. Who is actually here?" Genesis holds up his hand. King holds hand up. nails says, "Two gold stars. :)" Malakite isn't nails gives Malakite an F. Malakite chuckles, better then a F- :P Malakite is listenin. nails says, "Lets play group therapy. Who is everyone and why are you here?" nails says, "Malakite, tell us about yourself and your MU* habits" Gem enters from the Forum. Gem has arrived. Odin is here too. ;) nails says, "Woo!" nails says, "I'll do a little background spilling as well." Malakite says, "Umm.. K.. (thinks) I am just a happy coder... I like making things work.. My habbits are usually to lerk and listen.. hopefully learn as I go to make things better? :)" nails says, "Commendable." King will add as well Wolf has arrived. Wolf hangs with the cool ppls. Genesis stands up and says: "Hello, my name is Genesis, and I'm a MU*aholic. I tend to go in cycles: I play for a year, get pissed off at all the jerks, quit for a year, and come back to it. Since I'm a programmer who is working from home, I can game on and off all day. I code, but not as well as I'd like, and find it extremely frustrating that everywhere I help out, we have to reinvent the wheel. I often despair at the fact that most people who want to be MU* gods do so because they have no lives. I've been threatening to open a game of my own for a couple of years, now, but I'm too busy having a life." Gem thinks. "Are we doing introductions?" Genesis waits for everybody to say, 'Hi, Genesis!' and nods hopefully to his sponsor, nails. nails says, "Hi, Genesis!" nails nods to Gem. Odin applauds. :P Malakite says, "Hi Genesis.. heh" Wolf claw-waves. Genesis reassumes his stool with that humbled grin you all recognize from AA commercials. Malakite hands Genesis some cookies and coffee nails says, "I myself have been at this for over a decade. I started out trying to learn MUSH very quickly because the friend who showed me my first game promptly went away on family vacation, and I wanted to know more than he did by the time he got back. I'm a creature of spite. Years later, I spend most of my time helping others with their games, through hosting and babbling on code channels. I'm basically an enabler. But I am also a fan of the microcosm, and love the construction of the little world inside a MU* database." Odin is Odin, 28, from Norway. I'm head procrastinator of the odd game here and there, most prominent of them these days being Stargate: Atlantis MUSH. I've been around MU*s since '94, pretty much steady in the TinyMUSH/TinyMUX code side of things since '98. Also staff as Head Coder on Babylon 5: Rising Star and Two Moons. Uhm... I love writing code that blows things up, preferably segv'ing the driver in the process. Well, not really, but I seem to be unlucky in those regards. :P nails says, "Mm, cookies." Wolf is Wolf. "There, that sums me up!" *runs!!!* nails looks at Gem. nails eats cookies at Gem. King stands up next. "Hi, I'm King, thirty one now and Live in Texas. I'm here, well like others to learn hopefully. Just a normal, albeit nutty, guy who staffs as a PR and Approval staffer for Odin on Stargate: Atlantis MUSH. I got involved about a year and a half ago in MU* and been stuck to it ever since then." Wolf will do a proper one, give him a moment :> nails adds to his. nails says, "I live in a house in the forest, and I bake little children in my oven." Odin just loves those useful little tidbits of information nails has. Malakite chuckles, and thought ya lived in a shack.. down by the river heh King mmmms, "Little children." Wolf salivates. nails says, "So, we've got people who have been here for years, and people who have come to MU* fairly recently. People who handle code, RP staffing, writing." nails says, "Show of hands. How many of you actually RP on a regular basis?" King raises his hand. Malakite goes through his phases, but half raises heh Odin hehs. Yes and no. I usually tend to get RP blocks for long periods of time, and then get into it for a couple of months again.. *shrugs* I'm an intermittent actual player, at best. Gem pointedly does not raise her hand. Gem negatively raises her hand, if possible. Wolf speaks up. Wolf says, "Ok, you were warned, here's mine." nails uh oh nails says, "duck. and cover." King is worried Odin says, "#gag wofl!" Wolf says, "Hi I'm Wolf, head god of Ashirion the Broken Sphere and when I'm not designing virtual worlds. I'm a published RPG author, game designer and general game-a-holic. I'm 36 now and live in the UK with a talented Fantasy Artist wife and a strange black cat that likes to groom herself in odd patterns, we think this is because she's decided being a normal cat is boring and it's better to be unique. I've been involved in MU* for quite a while and have no real desire to code, because it was either coding or writing and my writing career is expanding at a phenomenal rate - I came here because nails kidnapped me, cajoled me with tales of virgins, little children and cookies - I have since found out there are very few virgins and even fewer cookies - I am currently in rehab for having an addiction to Britney Spears at the Metallica (Hate Britney) Institute. I am also a smart arse." Odin says, "Darnit. Wrong Wofl. ;P" Wolf MUAHAHS. nails says, "Gem took your cookies." nails says, "just fyi." [>>Public] Angie says, "Talk Night thingy?" [>>Public] nails points to bb 1 [>>Public] Angie says, "What's that?" Wolf NoOoOS! [>>Public] Angie says, "Ah." nails says, "So, we have primarily a bunch of staffers, who primarily don't RP regularly." nails says, "Is it a tradeoff between the two? Is it hard to staff and play?" nails says, "Those of you that do RP, do you play on your own game or elsewhere?" Wolf says, "I used to play on a number of games, now I only have time for a few and my own." Malakite says, "Usually when I rp it is not on my own place... I am usually working on code on mine" Odin says, "It is very hard to staff and play - especially on the same game. I usually find it easier to RP on a game on which I have no staff involvement whatsoever." Genesis returns from smoke land. "I tend to play on one game at a time. Almost inevitably, the staffers piss me off, and I leave. I haven't ever ran my own game. It involves too much work. As a staffer, I like to play, but again, the politics end up irritating me and I go back to solely tabletop RPGing." Wolf is a RP-nut tho. "Altho when you make it your job, it's like working in a game store...last thing you want to do when you come home at night, is play games heh." Odin says, "And yes - staffing will often take time away from playing, although I do make a point of taking a break from duties once in a while to do some actual playing. Or have a real life. Or something like that." nails says, "Is it a tradeoff that you accept gracefully?" Malakite says, "Accept... yes.. (eyeshift) LOL" Genesis says, "Not usually gracefully, no." nails grins at Genesis. Malakite says, "It is hard at times.. people want to rp with the staff at the begining, because they can't do their own thing... but still want new things in code so they love askin for a lot. heh" Genesis bats his eyes at nails. "I mean, c'mon. Why do most people start staffing at a game? I do it because I think I can make a difference, and end up finding out that what the God -really- wants is somebody to shovel the shit, not actually have any ideas of their own." King as of now only roleplays on his game. Now, I think that it is hard to staff and play on your own game normally. Working on it, and actually getting time to play, plus motivation is hard to come by at times. I am lucky my load is light compared to others, so I tend to have more time on my hands to RP. [>>Public] Dansa has connected. [>>Public] Angie says, "Huh." [>>Public] nails says, "@tel #399" Angie has arrived. Dansa has arrived. Wolf says, "In my case I do most of the work, because oddly enough. I enjoy it." Wolf is also a lunatic. nails says, "Dansa and Angie, we did little intro blurbs." Angie says, "Ok." nails says, "Why don't you share with us who you are, and what brings you to MU*" Angie nods. nails tries something with el log. Angie says, "Well, I'm Angie. I was brought to MU* through my interest in Sluggy Freelance, and saw that there was a MUX for Sluggy-related stuff. So I connected. That was about 5 years ago. I've been spreading out to various MU*s since, through invitations of friends." Odin nods - another thing that makes it harder to RP is awareness - you usually know what is going to happen, which detracts from your feeling of suspense. And you are at the same time wary of getting involved in RP that does not fit your (or the rest of staff's) vision of how the game should work. Angie is also an Aerospace Engineering major and a Boggle addict. ;) Genesis says, "One of the things that frustrates me is the very idea of staff vision. I mean, yes, there's room for plot and such, but too many staffers seem to forget that a) it's just a game, and b) a game is meant for people to have fun. If people aren't having fun, what's the point of your Grand Overarching Metaplot?" Angie nods. nails says, "So, where will you be in a year, in terms of MU*? Still staffing? Still RPing? Or in Gem's case, still eating cookies?" nails says, "Still coding?" Gem chews loudly and with vigour. Wolf will be where he's always been :) Genesis grins. "Probably on hiatus again." nails tags Genesis' ear so we can track his migration patterns. Malakite is hoping to have his little peons done by then King will hopefully still be staffing and roleplaying. Angie says, "Hmm. Dunno. Recently I've been getting into MARE. This is the only active MUX/MUSH that I'm on. I'm on a couple others, though mostly out of habit/nostalgia. But as far as the question goes... probably still just a player. Might do some coding. Been recently getting into ASCII art." Angie says, "... If you want me to cut down on the rambling, let me know. :P" nails says, "There's a topic on the Electricsoup web boards with the title of "Why MUSHes should die". At one point in the thread, I addressed the issue of 'vision' and control over the direction of a project in which one puts so much energy as being the cause of why I myself started my own game and why I think many others do likewise. You said that you hadn't done so, Genesis, because it is too much work. I definitely agree with that." nails says, "We are Pro-Ramble here." Malakite hopes down the makers of Yu-gi-oh, and slowly tourture them... Angie says, "Ahh, ok." Genesis says, "I've got a question...does anybody else think it's silly that the same game systems are being coded and recoded? I mean, aside from Myrddin's BBS, the Anomaly jobs and desc code, and the SGP (which haven't been updated in years), why isn't there more repositories of reuasable code in the community? This is part of the 'too much work' aspect." Malakite says, "*hunt" nails says, "Hah!" Gem says, "lots of people are possessive of the coding werk they've done and don't care to share, i think?" Wolf nods to Gem. nails says, "I disagree." King thinks it is mainly because of the fact the authors don't want to share at all. Gem says, "you disagree that they're possessive?" Malakite says, "that and the stuff that is shared... really isn't that great heh" nails says, "I think that's a belief that's mostly lived past the truth behind it." Dansa says, "Hi, I'm me. I started mu*ing way, way too long ago, have been staffing and running games and blah blah, and now I'm settling down into mostly just RPing; I'm interested in the community aspect of things as much if not more so than the roleplay, which is why I do this thing. That's me, in a nutshell. (And I'm slow, obviously.)" King says, "Which I understand you did the work for your system, why give it to others all the time." Gem nods at King. Genesis says, "Why not? is a better question, methinks." Dansa says, "Code-wise, I think a lot of it has to do with a _lot_ of code ending up very...specific to the game. And the work involved in sharing it." Dansa says, "With all of the systems being tied into one another, etc." Gem says, "Adam Dray used to share all his FiranMUX code, regardless of the specificity to the game, I believe." Odin will likely be doing what he's been doing for the past 7 years - staffing primarily, playing now and then. I don't see the MU* bug dieing in me just yet. :) Genesis says, "I think you've got a point, Dansa. I actually think the truth is somewhere between 'don't want to share' and 'too much work to share'. The 'too much work' aspect I can see, but the 'don't want to share' thing confuses the hell out of me." nails says, "The idea of code ownership has changed tremendously over the past five to ten years, not specifically in the context of MU* but in general. I'm not hopping on the Open Source bandwagon, but it's undisputable that the internet has changed, the population has changed, and people's usage patterns have changed." Angie says, "Which kind of code are we talking about? Stuff you'd see in + commands? Softcoded objects like Boggle? Or something else?" Dansa says, "I have found, in my experience, that...coders are happy to share. More than happy to share." Gem thinks. Dansa has never been turned down when she asked if she could use something. Ever. Dansa says, "'Sure, as long as you credit me, no problem.'" Genesis says, "I've been turned down dozens of times." Gem says, "I think it was easier in the past to find archives/repositories on the net in years past, but not so much now." nails says, "What I think we are seeing in terms of MU* softcode is a cultural lag." Genesis says, "How so, nails?" Odin says, "Softcode does see quite a bit of reuse. It's just not propagated through official repositories. It's code that's passed along between coders, and most often modified and changed. And then again, some softcoders recode the same thing time and time again for different games - simply because it is effortless at that point." nails says, "There are several factors that I would point to." Dansa says, "Maybe it's different circles, then? Different attitudes involved?" Dansa nods to Odin. nails says, "The first, possibly most blatant, is demonstrated by the initial response to your question: People *believe* that code is hard to get." Dansa says, "There's ALSO the whole 'I don't want to come install it for you' thing, with the asking." nails says, "The idea that coders are little golems holding onto their precious is an extremely common image." Gem says, "I will say that most of the coders that I hang out with/talk to with these days are generally more than willing to share code if asked. But I tend to believe that's because I know them." Malakite thinks that is the point of ownership.. people are afraid if their code is everywhere their place isn't as special as it was.. so they worry about losing users because now someone else just c/ped all the stuff they spend (maybe even years) on.. in like an hour :) nails says, "I do believe that it depends on who you ask, how and when you ask, and how people perceive your usage." Malakite's stuff is worked together so it would be imposible to just take one Angie hmms. nails says, "But this is a side effect of how softcode changes hands." nails says, "It is a case of going somewhere and asking people. It is not a matter of going to a website or a central repository." nails says, "Again, I would say that there is a cultural lag. MU* code hasn't made it into archives the way many other content has in recent years." nails says, "Another factor of it is that MU* code installation is pretty damn ugly." Angie blinks, remembers something that nails said to her once... "Come here for the nails, stay for the Boggle." nails grins. Angie says, "And that's true." Dansa says, "Yeah. You can't just throw most of it up into an archive...easily and cleanly. There's usually a bunch of notations that have to go with it and discussion attached and blahblahblah." nails says, "This is something that Dansa hit upon, btw. the Installation thing." nails says, "That said?" Genesis has reconnected. Genesis has partially disconnected. Odin nods. Another thing is that this method of propagation benefits the softcoders that are asking for the code too. In most cases, getting code in that fashion involves rewriting it in some form - adding fields to finger, changing formatting, modifying list content pullers etc. That propagates style of code and forces them to read and understand it as well, thus giving them insight into the workings of the code. Website-distributed softcode that is 'ready to run' is not the same - you cut and paste it, and it works. You don't read the code or try to modify it, in most cases. nails says, "softcode installation can be done cleanly." Dansa says, "It _can_ be, but how much code is actually written to be installed?" Dansa says, "So to speak." nails says, "Myrddin's BBS. Anomaly Jobs." Genesis says, "Cursedly little." Malakite would rather give code to someone who is going to work with it and improve it, then someone who is just going to put it in, and do nothing but use it Dansa says, "Which comparatively is hardly anything." nails says, "It takes a great deal of effort. Both Myrddin and Anomaly have done phenomenal work." Dansa says, "It _can_ be done, but it's...yeah, exactly." nails says, "However, I look at it as proof of concept." Dansa says, "Most people don't code for the community, they code for a game." nails says, "I think it would be possible to codify installation code." Genesis says, "The problem is the flakiness of most people coding. I mean, look at SGP. It pretty much died on the vine." nails says, "Hundreds of games use SGP code." Malakite nods to Dansa. nails says, "It may not be stellar code, but it's usable." Genesis says, "Yes, but it was a project of grander scale when it got started, and it hasn't been worked on in what? Four years?" Dansa says, "And so while many are happy to share if _asked_, they don't do it in the first place with the _intention_ to share, and so it's not...install friendly." nails says, "To address Dansa's point: Most people ode for the game." nails says, "code for the game, not for the community." nails says, "THAT is cultural lag." Dansa says, "Yeahbut." Genesis nods. "The question becomes: who will stand up and provide a central resource for people to code for the community? Because -that's- what will get it going." nails says, "Can I show you something?" Genesis says, "Sure!" Dansa says, "Never!" Malakite sheilds his eyes Dansa says, "Er, yeah, sure." nails points to: http://museon.org Gem says, "i don't think so." Malakite says, "has anyone put anything on there nails?" nails says, "Museon. A project to provide a central resource for people to code for the community." Odin nods, true. But then the question arises that has been on a lot of MU*ers minds for quite some time - isn't the MU* community dying at this point? Writing code for the community isn't as attractive - simply because the playerbase has shrunk so much. Dansa says, "..." Genesis says, "My turn. Go to Google and type: 'free mux code' and see what comes up." Dansa says, "No. No, no, the community is so not dying." nails says, "Odin, show me statistics that support that claim?" Malakite says, "I don't think so Odin... I think just the amount of coders are increasing" Angie has disconnected. [>>Public] Angie has disconnected. [>>Public] Angie has connected. Angie has connected. Gem says, "people have been saying the community has been dying for like. years. i don't think that's the case. i just don't think it's growing exponentially, either." Genesis says, "I mean, nails, I've been looking for a central MUX code repository for the last few days, and found just about bupkiss. There's no coordination or easily found resources." Dansa says, "The community is shifting and evolving." nails says, "Let me tell you the brief history of Museon" Malakite says, "Ya think MMORPHs have had a negitive effect on mushes?" nails says, "I think it will clearly outline what I mean in regards to the cultural lag issue." Gem says, "not really, imo, malakite." Angie says, "Gah. My computer randomly rebooted." nails says, "Hold the MMORPG thing for a sec :)" Odin says, "No, not truly... (Holds on MMORPG comments.. :) )" Dansa says, "The problem with that, nails, is not...I don't know. Most people again, don't code for the community, they code for the game. Which yes, cultural lag in some ways, but at the same time? This is a hobby for entertainment and coders usually are supporting the games they want to play on and..." Malakite plays hold music Dansa says, "You'd have to bash people over the head to make them aware that hey they could participate, and I think far more effective than just saying 'hey this resource for sharing exists' would be 'hey you there would you do X for my resource to help the community as a whole?' on a more individual level." nails says, "I started Museon several years ago. I started it very quickly, all full of piss and vinegar. The concept: Fix the epidemic problem of too many games and not enough dedicated coders. The idea: Have coders get together and write modifyable, easy to install, openly available, documented and supported code. Non-coding game admins would get together, figure out what code they needed, and coders would work specifically on those projects." nails says, "ie: Coding for the community." nails says, "Let me tell you what actually happened, which contradicts the beliefs I have been hearing." nails says, "Coders showed up. Lots of them. They showed up open minded, they talked well amongst themselves. They were ready to back the project." nails says, "Game owners looking for dedicated coders were approached, both for old games and new, newbie and veterans alike. They got the pitch." nails says, "And almost to a one, they rejected it." Genesis says, "Which reinforces my point that most MU* gods are arsewipes. :^)" Odin nods. I don't doubt that there could be organized community /effort/ - I'm just saying solitary coders are unlikely to create and post their work to a webpage just to give to the community. nails says, "They told me they did not believe coders would support the project. They told me coders only coded what they wanted to code. They told me that their game was special and could only be serviced by a dedicated coded (oh and did I know anybody they could hire?)." Genesis laughs! nails says, "In short: coders were willing to work in such a system. Game admins weren't ready to believe it." Wolf says, "Which is a shame." nails says, "The people who stood to benefit from such a project were not interested." nails says, "And let me tell you something else." Genesis says, "I'm willing to bet they still aren't...in large part, because it's the same pack of assholes rotating from game to game to game as it was five years ago." nails says, "Several of the game admins I approached, who rejected the idea, shut their games down within months because they could not find a dedicated coder." nails says, "And Genesis, it isn't the same pack of... individuals." Malakite points out he will code for food :P Gem says, "why don't more of those admins learn how to code? out of curiosity." Gem offers Malakite some of her cookies. Genesis says, "Really? Because I've been MU*ing for about a decade now, and I see the same names and faces, over and over again." Wolf gives Mal cookies. nails says, "For some people it's a mental block. For others, they have too much on their plates already." [>>Public] Jeckel has connected. Jeckel has connected. nails says, "King, how long did you say you've been MU*ing? a little over a year? :)" Genesis says, "Point taken." Gem says, "genesis - perhaps it's the specific circle you travel in?" Malakite looks at Jeckel.. who is that.. LOL j/k King says, "Yep, and code-less I am. But I am on the verge of learning" nails says, "I really think the problem is that the MU* community has ingrained cultural beliefs, myths really, about "how things are done"." Dansa says, "That is absolutely fascinating, nails." Jeckel turns invisible, nobody here, nope Dansa says, "I mean. Wow." nails says, "I think that if there was enough of a critical mass in people willing to break out of the mold, that things could be done in new ways." Genesis says, "No doubt about that, nails. And Gem, not really -- I don't actually talk to these people except whe I keep running into them on a game." Dansa says, "And yet, it doesn't surprise me at all." Genesis says, "So, nails, what do you propose in terms of a critical mass, and how to gather it?" nails says, "Here's my problem." Gem nods at Genesis. nails says, "There is only one of me." Malakite thought it had to do with canada :P j/k Genesis nods. "And we, your many admirers." He grins. Dansa says, "Because I pause for a second and consider how I would feel getting code that isn't from one of the people I work with on a consistent basis...and even I start getting a scrunched up nose and a wary look. Hmm." King says, "It can be done, but I think it is going to take something huge to break the mold and get people to open up. I can say it is good to have a head admin that knows code. Others can benefit big time from it." nails says, "I run half a dozen servers, I host over 50 games. I've got a full time job, etc etc." nails says, "And the real kicker?" nails says, "I don't really run an RP game. I'm not the person who is going to benefit the most from this project." nails says, "If I can't get other people to buy in, it's hard for me to carry the torch." Genesis considers. nails says, "But consider this: Contrary to the "MUSH is dying" myth, there are new games starting every month. In some cases, every week." Wolf nods. Odin says, "Well, break the mold completely then, and change the way in which games are started. Offer new game administrators the chance to buy their accounts with a precreated minimal database that outmodes SGP and provides them with a game that just needs to be built, not coded from scratch. Provide them with installer services that do not only work for your own hosts, but also for whoever might want to log on and install code to their game." Gem says, "how many of those stay open/gain players, though." Genesis says, "Oh, yes. MU* isn't dying. That's a myth propogated by places like SWOFA and that bunch." nails says, "Each one is an opportunity to get a crowbar in and change the old mentality." nails nods to Odin. nails says, "I just have to sit down and write one myself. :)" Dansa says, "'Mu* is dying' is an argument I see EVERY SINGLE YEAR and have for the last...14 years, now." Gem agrees with Dansa. Dansa says, "Once during the holidays and once during the summer." Gem grins mischievously. nails says, "I will say this:" Wolf nods to Dansa. Dansa says, "As far as 'everyone is talking about it' goes." nails says, "I believe in this fact:" Malakite wonders since you host all these games... all these places are starting new so I mean there is the chance to show it works isn't it? nails says, "The percentage of internet users who MU* has decreased every year." Genesis says, "Because the percentage of Internet users has skyrocketed in general?" nails says, "Yes." nails says, "And I think this factoid colors people's views about MU*" nails says, "MU* has become less relevant overall in the scheme of the Internet, perhaps." Genesis says, "Okay... I think every agrees that a central code repository of reusable generic code would be good. Right?" Genesis says, "Or more aptly put...does anyone think it would be a bad thing?" Malakite points out that mu* has been around for years, and as everything else has upgraded they have stayed the same.. nails says, "MU*s have NOT stayed the same." nails says, "Another horrible myth." nails says, "Hello. I started on TinyTIM. TinyTIM does not have floating point math functions." Genesis cackles! Odin says, "Hah. I have to agree with nails there. MU*s have evolved - and fast, too. Not only in code, but in scope and design as well." Gem says, "still?" nails says, "TinyTIM's mail system uses objects." King thinks it is a great idea to have. "MU*s have changed because they are what people make them to be. Now the very basic design scheme stays but other things change." nails says, "TinyTIM does not have channels, and never will. That's a philosophical decision on their part." nails says, "The latest release of TinyMUX came out /this month/" Odin says, "As did TM3.1." nails says, "TM3.1 came out with a new release?" Odin says, "And Rhost is continually being updated." Odin nods, TM3.1p2. nails says, "p2 has been around since January at least. :)" Odin says, "Well, new patchlevel, I should say - contrary to the rumor that the project is utterly dead." Genesis says, "Let's look at things that are lacking: MU*code is incredibly frickin' dense. I mean, I'm a professional programmer, and it still hurts my brain. There are too few tools like Luigi's MUSHroom program, allowing for graphical creation of rooms and description. And there is a lack of a central code repository, and a community to support it, along with project leaders to push projects, like generic installers for chargen for common game systems, for example." Odin hehs. Ah. In that case, it is I who have been lax. Dansa says, "The social and cultural aspects of our hobby are evolving, too." Dansa says, "However! The way that they're evolving actually feeds into the myth that it's dying." nails says, "I believe that the tools, the code repository, and all these things are possible." Genesis says, "So why not do 'em? I mean, we can talk and talk, but who is going to step up to the plate?" Malakite says, "And if they do step up to the plate will it be used" Angie returns from a phone conversation and goes to read the backscroll... Dansa says, "So sell it to me, nails. As a game lead, why would I want to come to you to ask for help with code when I have at least three dedicated coders that I've worked with long-term that will happily do precisely what I ask to my specific specifications? ;)" Genesis says, "It'll be used, I assure you." nails says, "Let me give you a figure." nails says, "Right now, on this one physical server alone? over 750 MU* connections." Dansa summarizes the problem for getting any of the established game leads to buy into such a project, right there. nails says, "Dansa:" Jeckel says, "but is the point to get oldhats to use it or for the new game makers?" nails says, "Having 3 coders available to you puts you in a TINY minority." Genesis says, "I'd say the new game makers. The multitude of people who don't have Dansa's coding crew." Dansa says, "Not for the oldhats." nails says, "Seriously." Dansa says, "I guess my social circle is seriously skewed. -.-" Malakite wishes he had 3 coders avaliable Odin nods. You have no idea how many games I've been asked to code for. And I'm by no means a high profile coder out in the community like some others. And in most cases, I have to say no - because I'm already swamped with code jobs. nails says, "Trust me. I host several games that are over 5 years old, some much older, and I sit on staff channels on these places." Gem giggles. Dansa says, "So why don't these people work with you? I don't get it." Genesis looks around, grins and steps up. "Okay. I'll host the project, if nobody else will. Seriously. I've got a server with damned near unlimited bandwidth. I'll even register a site for it." nails says, "I often hear on these old games, with old players and old staff, despairing for need of a coder." Genesis is all about the practical. :^) nails has the project. and the domain :) nails says, "And the servers." nails says, "What I need are people." Genesis nods. "Okay. Count me in." Wolf says, "Which is why I came." nails says, "But then, Genesis, you'd have to bow to my 'vision'..." nails coughs. Wolf imagines Nails as Scar, for a moment, brain=broken. Gem says, "mrowr." Genesis says, "Screw you and your vision, biznatch." He pauses. "Er...did I say that in the outside voice? Lead on, fair nails!" nails says, "I should point out that a few months ago Anomaly agreed to head up the Museon project. Unfortunately RL and other projects stepped in." nails says, "Lets step back a sec." Genesis says, "Pity. He's got very strong organizational skills." Malakite backs up against the wall :P nails says, "I am curious about something." nails says, "Have I convinced you with my fanatic ranting about 'cultural lag' or whatever you would like to call it?" Jeckel kicks his cultural connection and curses the lag Genesis says, "For the most part, yes. I still think moronic MU* Gods will bitch'n'moan. Expect to get your very own SWOFA forums." nails says, "Been there, done that, got the evisceration." nails says, "Let me ask this." Wolf says, "The non moronic ones will stand by nails however." Odin says, "No, I'm not sure that's the greatest factor to it. Or well, the edge cuts both ways, if that makes sense. If you want to make a project like that work, you have to /work/ for it too. Selling the idea means marketing it as well, and having a product to show for it." nails hmms. Genesis nods in -strong- agreement with Odin. "And making nice with people you don't like." nails says, "I agree with that, Odin." Wolf nods to Odin. nails says, "But my 'product' requires buy-in, and my 'marketing' requires more than just my one voice." Genesis says, "Let's not forget, for one second, the essential truth: MU*ing is filled with antisocial jerks with attitude problems. I should know, as I'm one of 'em. A project like this is going to need a mouthpiece who is willing to swallow the shit. A Linus Torvalds, if you can dig it." Jeckel nods, true dat Malakite says, "Fo sure" Dansa also agrees with Odin. Lots. And also Genesis. nails politely declines Genesis' application for the role of Director of PR. nails) nails ;) Angie smirks. King would apply but I have a PR but mine is enough to make be bitch a storm. Angie finally caught up with the backscroll. Genesis snorts. "You might want to turn down Ghengis Khan's while you're at it. I hear he's looking for a compassion-oriented job where he can give out hugs all day long." Dansa laughs and laughs. King laughs Malakite would apply but doesn't deal well with... 'others' King deals well with others, ask Odin. Genesis says, "And nails? I love you, man, but I don't think you're the best frontman for this operation, either." nails says, "Oh, I know. I spent about 2 months actively evangelizing when I first tried to push this." Dansa says, "I would suggest approaching one of the various diplomatic geniuses of our community and asking for help there. They are out there." Genesis says, "Siobhan@OGR might not be a bad choice. Not everybody loves her, but few actively hate her, IME." nails coughs. Dansa says, "I think there are likely better candidates." Malakite chuckles. Genesis says, "Okay. Name one." Malakite is going to have to agree with Dansa... No offince to Sio of course. Dansa says, "Astra, if she could be talked into it. :P" Genesis says, "Hey, it was a suggestion. I'd be happy to hear others." Odin chuckles. Yes, King has an uncanny way of saying "You're a frickin' idiot, go hump a metal pole in sub-zero weather." Genesis says, "Astra, no." Genesis says, "Definitely not." Angie seems to be out of the loop, somewhat. The old loop she's from is SluggyMUX/Evolution/ChaoticMUSH... and the MUDnet crowd, to some extent. Odin says, "Usually in a paragraph, and without sounding like that's what he's saying. ;)" Genesis says, "Hrm. Perhaps somebody outside of the MU* community?" nails says, "That's an interesting idea." Dansa says, "Pushing such a project would require fairly in-depth knowledge of the culture and social mores, I think." Genesis says, "I disagree, Dansa." Dansa says, "How can you sell something if you don't know anything about it?" King says, "Yes, but if they are outside the community, why would they take it. This is sort of something that you would have to love doing. IMO" Genesis says, "Management and PR is rarely reliant on experience in your market; it's just knowledge of it. Knowledge and experience aren't the same thing." Dansa also points at King. nails says, "These days?" Angie hmms. Malakite says, "so what exactly would this person do?" Dansa says, "We're really not dealing with most 'normal' situations, however. We're not dealing with selling an unknown product to a culture you're already familiar with." nails says, "When people approach me looking for a coder (or ha ha asking me to code for them?) I just point them at the Museon website." Dansa says, "That'd be like asking someone from America to go manage PR in Japan with only book-knowledge of the customs there. Which is utterly different than not being familiar with the product." nails says, "It's an idea. It's a way to do things differently, to change the way things have been done for well over a decade." Genesis shrugs. "I return to my previous suggestion, Dansa: name someone. Name someone who hasn't pissed off somebody else in the MU* community, who won't have some aspect of it up in arms, who won't kill the project before it's even gotten off the ground. Name that person, and I'll withdraw my suggestion." nails says, "Lets not get into a pissing match over it :)" Dansa says, "...not saying you should withdraw your suggestion. I was just pointing out potential issues with it so that they could be addressed." Malakite says, "hasn't pissed of anyone.. dang.. that is askin a lot Genesis LOL" Genesis nods. "Fair 'nuff." nails says, "I think the most important thing would be for someone to really believe the idea was both feasible and of significant merit to the community." Angie says, "Ok. So what, exactly, are we 'selling' here? A community of coders willing to pre-package code for startups, and people willing to use the resource?" Malakite wonders if we want the people who are absolute jerks to be able to use this 'service' I mean comon if they are jerks then why do we have to bend over back-wards to smuch them on the behind heh :) King says, "We all rub people wrong, and if it is a project that is important enough to come too, who deals with it shouldn't matter." Genesis says, "Well, we have a choice, right? Pick somebody who is going to alienate part of the community, or pick somebody outside the community, or on the fringe. I guarantee you I can get people who can manage the hell out of this thing, and would be willing to do it." He nods to Angie. "That what it sounds like to me." Genesis ponders. "Of course...there is an alternate approach, here. nails says, "One key facet of Museon as I pictured it was that any code project undertaken would first be spec'd out by staff of games that actually intended to use it." nails says, "Think about how the traditional model works." nails says, "Person starts a game. They hire a coder. They say "Hey I need faction code".s" nails says, "Some form of discussion takes place, code is written, tweaked, used in the game." [>>Public] Tory has joined this channel. [>>Public] Tory has connected. [>>Public] nails waves. "We're in #399" Angie says, "... Hmm. Y'know, I'm actually wondering if the whole 'bounty' thing I just read about in a recent UF comic might be a good idea." Tory has arrived. nails waves :) Tory waves! nails says, "We're beating the old Museon dead horse :)" Dansa flops on Tory, keeps listening. Genesis says, "What about this, as an alternate approach? There is a subset of things virtually -every- game needs, right? Figure out that subset and code it, separating it out from the need to be used in any particular game. Make it truly generic. Then, as interest grows, build generic code for the major RP systems: d20, WoD, etc. It becomes a grassroots project, instead of something we're trying to sell to a recalcitrant community." nails says, "This is what Museon originally suggested:" Genesis says, "Basically, SGP++." nails says, "Get people together in groups. Get 4 or 5 or x number of non-coding game admins. They all need faction code. They each have different needs. Have them discuss amongst themselves where there is overlap and where the code would need to be customized. Write it up as a spec." nails says, "Then that project is handed off to coders for review, possible modification, and then coding." Angie says, "http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050814" Angie says, "What is faction code?" nails says, "On many RP games, players join factions. Houses or Clans or what have you." Angie says, "Ahhh." Angie nods. nails says, "This manages those groups." nails nods to Genesis belatedly. nails says, "Regardless of people's preferences regrding SGP's quality, usability, configurability, SGP is a success." nails says, "People can grab it and install it and use it." nails says, "I think some positive lessons can be taken from that." nails says, "I think there are also areas for improvement." nails says, "Documentation and support for example." King says, "Right, maybe that could be a problem with people not using it. Support." nails says, "One benefit of having a project like Museon would be to provide these extra layers. In an open community, a particular piece of code need not go unsupported because the original author is no longer available." nails says, "And support need not be provided by the original authors of the code." Angie says, "Hmm. Looks like there's a mushcode.com... been there a couple times before, though it looks to not be responding right now." Dansa hmmmm. nails says, "You produce code. You get a few people using it. You have forums of some sort." Angie says, "Google has it cached, though." nails says, "Other people who have installed it can help newbies." nails says, "That whole community thing again." Dansa says, "I think to get it going, nails..." Dansa says, "Come up with a list of those, and approach specific game leads/admin for specs...get the code produced, /then/ go for selling it to people and get it being used that way." Genesis says, "nails, you'd have to be responsible for enforcing coding guidelines on this thing. And setting up forums and the entire support structure for the venture. MUSHcode is an example of what not to do, IMO. It's just a bunch of links." Malakite thinks the key lies in making systems.. other then specific programs.. Genesis says, "I have to once again push the need for game system specific systems." nails says, "Coding guidelines are covered in the original Museon spec." Genesis says, "Yes, but enforcing them is a whole other ballgame, right?" Angie says, "Heh. Could do a Wiki." Genesis says, "Absolutely!" nails says, "The idea is: before the first line of code is written, coders talk and discuss best practices. One thing we did early on was codify an attribute naming schema." lain has arrived. Angie waves to lain. lain says, "Yo." nails says, "Additionally, what coding practices make for the easiest cross-platform coding?" nails says, "ie, what functions to avoid, etc." nails says, "And to go back 45 min or so? Have people work on writing installer code." nails says, "I'm not saying this is easy." nails says, "I'm not saying it could be thrown together in a weekend." Dansa says, "Looooong term project." nails says, "All I am saying is that there are possibilties, viable possibilities, to eliminate one more barrier to a successful MU* project." nails says, "It's a matter of people shifting ideas and shifting resources." Angie hmms. nails says, "Over the past 10 years, a great deal has changed in terms of another barrier." nails says, "I remember first compiling TinyMUSH 2.0." nails says, "Finding server space, finding someone who could get MUSH up and running, finding a stable connection." Angie says, "Well, MU* *is* more understandable than MARE coding... helluva lot less picky about brackets and parentheses. You've at least convinced me that MU* isn't in it's last dying gasps." nails says, "These things were far less common ten years ago." nails says, "Nowadays, someone can paypal any of a dozen places $10 and have a game up and running in under 24 hours." nails says, "That is a huge change." Angie hmms. nails says, "I have started new games in 15 minutes just as a punchline to a joke." Odin chuckles. That joke, I'd like to hear. :P nails says, "I think 10 minutes of that was doing the ASCIIfied connect screen" nails says, "bee.mushpark.com 1845" nails says, "Welcome to BeeMUSH" nails bzz bzz Odin says, "Ah, been there. I was boggling over the name. ;P" nails says, "Someone was trying to explain, I think it was faction code, on the OGR code channel." Angie says, "5 years ago, most of the people I knew on MU*s were in high school. A few in college. Most of those people aren't around anymore, and there and the old places feel more like ghost towns." Odin believe we tested some strange @mail behavior in TM3. nails says, "They were trying to explain bees in the context of a hive." nails says, "Carnelia blurted out, "BeeMUSH!"" nails says, "a few minutes later it was up." Odin laughs. ;) Angie says, "Hehe." King says, "hehe" nails thinks that was 4 years ago. nails keeps it running just because he can. :) Angie grins. Dansa hee. Angie says, "Hmm. Well, most of the 'coding' I've done is silly objects and games to interact with. Like a spin the bottle game I made years ago." nails says, "You know. Before we started tonight someone asked me what the topic was. I said there wasn't one, and that maybe I would just go off on a rant about the problems with the MU* community. but probably not." nails says, "Sweet irony." Genesis cackles. Dansa says, "Lots of the barriers have fallen away. A lot of them." Angie says, "Hehe." Odin says, "You are a weak, weak person, nails. ;P" nails is. King grins...But it was good that you did. nails says, "And I need a drink." Dansa says, "I mean hell, 10 years ago, meetings like this? OH NOES, WE CAN'T TALK! They might steal our secrets!" King offers beer? nails says, "And so, there you have it." Genesis says, "I have a modest proposal." nails listens. Dansa was treated as an utter freak at one point for trying to get a collection of game heads together for a discussion on some of the common problems faced. 'Are you insane?' Yeah. So, the culture is definitely evolving. Genesis says, "nails, can you gather email addresses from folks interested, put us on a mailing list, and get this puppy going? I'm all excited to help out on this project, and I'm sure some other people here are, but we still need a prodding." Dansa listens too. nails feels like he should shoot one of you in cold blood, and then scream. "Go! Go home to your families! To your children! Tell them what you have seen here! Tell them all!" Angie lol nails says, "Mailing list. check." Genesis says, "Which means everyone should spam nails @mail with your email addresses if you're interested." Odin submits kenneaal@start.no for. :P Dansa says, "So let's talk about that MMORPG thing, now!" nails says, "yes." Odin doesn't truly think the MMO games have pulled many players from the RP community. I do believe they are preventing growth however - some who would have eventually sought out MU*s and potentially becoming very valuable members, both as potential staff and players, are instead being drugged by the WoW Bug so to say. Much like the multimedia generation, they're more easily placated by the online version of TV, rather than picking up a book to read. Dansa says, "Because I get rabid about-er, love talking about that." nails says, "MMORPGs stealing MU* children: all lies." nails QED. Dansa says, "Not utterly true!" nails says, "I mean. Discuss." Dansa says, "I think that they are stealing players from muds, to a point." Genesis says, "I don't have time to discuss, I'm off the play City of Heroes. ;^)" Angie says, "Heh. Closest thing I go to for something like that is Kingdom of Loathing. I don't have the money to buy all the MMO things. Even if it's free to play, I don't have the money for the software." Odin does not agree. I know for a fact that a lot of damn good roleplayers play MMOs, but not MU*s. Their answer is invariably this - they want the feeling of accomplishment as they watch their levels rise; they want something that taxes their shiny, turbofan graphics card, and they want the cool unique drops. And in the meantime, they also roleplay their characters vividly, in manners fitting for a MU*. nails says, "People RP on MMOs?" Dansa says, "See, I've never seen people RP on MMO's. I know a lot of people who mush that have picked up MMO's? And not only do they still Mu*, but they recruit people from there to _us_." Genesis says, "Unfortunately, folks, I gotta bolt. nails, I think your project is brilliant and want to help. Keep me in the loop, yo." nails will doso. Angie waves. nails says, "Later, chief :)" King waves Genesis bows and goes poof. Genesis returns to the Forum. Genesis has left. [>>Public] Genesis has disconnected. Dansa says, "I've worked with a decent sized handful of players in the last 6 months that are just now coming into mu*ing from the MMORPG sector because a buddy there went 'hey, you know...'" Angie has heard MU*s called 'glorified telnet'. And that if they want to go on telnet, they can go and talk to their router. >_> Dansa says, "It's a different form of gaming." nails says, "My feeling is that RP in a MU* is a distinctly literary experience." Angie says, "Hmm." nails says, "Some people prefer novels to movies, or treat them differently." nails says, "I'm sure MRI brain research would back me up on this." Dansa says, "At least over here in my corner of the woods, we get players from gaming. Tabletop, larps, other online text type games, chat rooms, etc. And now, the MMORPG's. Because while the _flow_ of 'mu*' to 'MMORPG' is much wider and faster, there is still a flow in reverse, and we've _always_ had a very slight trickle in this way." Angie says, "You might be able to recruit people from IRC into MU*s... that's where I was before I came here. I did a couple RP things on IRC. Though strangely, I haven't done any RP since coming to MU*s. :P" Angie says, "Of course, that was 5 years ago and the old RP places I went to have long since switched servers and I'm out of contact with them." Dansa says, "Our community has always shed players like water and had a slow and fairly steady take-on of the same. I haven't really seen a trend of that getting worse. I've seen a _lot_ of people who play on the mu*'s that also play WoW, etc -- but they don't give us up for it." King thinks it is more about the person. I got partially recruited by a friend and by myself looking online about MU*s. I also took a gander MMO, but I found MU*ing more to my style. I think that may come down too it, as times change, so does interests. I can say, I never would have thought of RPing in my teens or twenties, but now in my thirties I love it to death. Angie knows more people that RP'd in their teens but don't in their 20's... doesn't really know all that many people in their 30's. :P [>>Public] Plessiez has connected. Odin nods. Actually, Caltech already has research on it, nails. The brain is more easily stimulated for a lot of people by visual input rather than textual. But the reason for this is that because the visual part of our brain develops earlier and faster, people today have grown to using them due to laziness. That center that interprets text (And in our case, creates mental imagery from them) is made up just like the visual part of things - it requires constant use and training to become evolved. King is a late bloomer. :P Odin says, "By 'visual' here, I mean of course video in all its glory, be it movie, game or whatever." [>>Public] Plessiez has disconnected. nails thinks. Angie hmms. Angie says, "I may be wrong, but I think the geeky/nerdy females (somewhat rare they may be) go more for the text-based things than the video-based things." Angie says, "At least, that's been my limited experience." nails > http://museon.org/mailman/listinfo/museon-discussion Angie whees. Angie says, "Although, you'd get a different opinion if you talked to Kludge-BC. ;)" nails says, "Heh. Kludge." nails @Kludge's, "More Random @toadings!" Malakite says, "riiibit" Dansa says, "Be that the case, Odin, I still don't think that we're really losing anything to the visual games. There's been graphical games. Not multiplayer, but still. It's similar, like nails said, to the book vs movie thing." Dansa says, "This is an entirely different sort of gaming. The people who are interested in this sort of gaming are going to come play it. The people that aren't are going to go find something else to do." Dansa says, "It's not like we ever got a _huge_ amount of people that mushed because there was literally nothing else for them to do, after all. While they did exist, it's not been a majority of our population." nails says, "Oh." nails says, "Another bastardly thing I do." Angie says, "Mm?" Dansa says, "Maybe I'm weird, but I would rather that the people who we lose to MMORPG's...be lost, rather than sticking around and cluttering up in an environment that isn't geared for what they want." nails says, "When people tell me nobody MUSHes anymore?" Dansa says, "Hm?" nails says, "I give them the address to Shangrila." Dansa says, "Point at Shang?" Dansa haha. Yeah. King laughs and has yet to visit there. Angie has never actually been there. Barely heard of it, actually. Dansa says, "I gasped last night, for I saw the fewest people I have ever seen connected there. There were only /152/. Shock!" nails > Connected: 416 Gem says, "Shang is like a means to an end." Gem says, "a sticky. end." nails says, "I have watched what happens when we shut it down and restart." Angie says, "Ah." nails says, "Within the first 60 seconds, there is usually 80 players on." Dansa says, "I dunno. I started playing there about...a week ago? Maybe a week and a half? I don't know. I've gotten some of the best RP I've ever had there, without ever going into the realm of the sexual." Dansa says, "So it's possible. ;)" nails says, "Interesting thing to point out." nails says, "Shang's staff isn't much larger than your average game." Dansa says, "It's really a fascinating game, and they've done an absolutely beautiful job with it. And sex sells. There's a hell of a lot of people there, and...yeah. That's definitely proof enough that the people do exist." nails says, "Shangrila also brings new people into MU*, who later migrate out to other games." nails says, "I'm running out of steam." Odin says, "Shang has an amazing collection of creative, excellent roleplayers. And yes, you can get non-TS RP there too. Easily, in fact." Angie says, "Huh." Dansa points at what nails said. Yes. The migration thing. Shang does very well at bringing people in. Dansa says, "So you look at Shang, and they're CLEARLY not seeing the 'drop in players' that is so often claimed. So, so many things could be read into that, and I don't know if they are all contingent upon the actual sex portion of things." Dansa says, "There's a lot of other things that they do that are different from a lot of games." Dansa says, "...it's interesting to ponder, at least." nails ponders. nails huggifies nails says, "I think I am going to collapse. And I have a road trip tomorrow morning." Dansa hugs. Thank you! Tonight was terribly interesting. Dansa says, "Even if people didn't bow down and worship da ego as they should. ;) Sigh." King nods, "Yes, this was an interesting discussion." Player Name On For Idle What are you eating? Tory 1:06 4m Jeckel 1:36 1h Angie 1:44 8m Dansa 2:08 1m exoteris 2:39 0s King 3:58 1m Minion 7:11 1m 2005's Official Stalker of nails Odin 23:27 2m Malakite 1d 02:58 13m lain 1d 05:11 56m feem 3d 13:44 7h Narilka 5d 08:55 4h Ambrosia 6d 05:34 4h Wolf 6d 08:04 1h Ian 9d 06:50 1d Draken-Korin 10d 02:24 6m Jake 10d 13:36 19h Vadiv 17d 02:32 3d Grey 18d 03:51 3h Brigid 21d 21:31 1d Webster 23d 04:56 37m +spell Brazil 23d 20:52 1d pheesh 25d 01:20 2d karin 27d 11:46 31m Mark 27d 11:53 5h Do wop. Wop Wop. milk 27d 19:33 1d Klaire 27d 20:45 3w grapenut 27d 22:38 27s nails 27d 22:52 1m Gem 27d 22:52 16m BOTSPOT. 30 Players logged in, 40 record, no maximum. The Lecture Hall - Museon You stand in a colonnaded gallery of smooth white stone, lit during the day by clear glass skylights set into the high arched ceiling; by night, torches in high mounts illuminate the hall. The floor is carpeted in dark blue, and low benches arranged in a cresent ring an open area. While ornately decorated, this place has an indisputable air of utilitarian purpose. Contents: lain Tory Dansa Angie Wolf Gem Malakite Odin King nails Jeckel Vadiv Brazil The Archives (TA) The Forum (O) Malakite says, "if you want to worship my ego Dansa I won't stop ya LOL j/k" Dansa grins. nails says, "Anyone wanting to worship my ego would have to find it first." Dansa shares her ego with nails. Plenty to go around. Dansa says, "And then some." nails @wheeeeeeeeeees! Dansa was fairly good tonight! nails says, "I think exoteris will end the log now." Dansa grins. exoteris worships nails' ego and obeys.